Atheism

That's funny coming from a jerk who thinks about sex all the time. You can only dream. Besides, you think they're material objects.

Welcome!

Maybe one day he'll move out of his mother's basement, get a sex life of his own, and stop bitching about everyone else's.

I doubt that'll happen at his age. He's been a momma's boy too long.

Rap

You and Wilso have wives for ****'s sake. That's not sex. It's playing doctors and nurses. At best a bad business deal.

And if you defined it as "whatever actually is despite human ability to know it"...it would mean it is whatever actually is despite human ability to know it.



Perhaps. But ultimately...something is going on here...and whatever it is...THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

Whatever IS...IS.



If gods are defined as irrelevant...they are irrelevant. If the comment "defining gods as irrelevant" is itself defined as gratuitous and irrelevant...,then that definition becomes irrelevant, Olivier. Doing either of those things makes any real sense to me.




I'm not even saying that! Quote me when you address what I say.

So far, I have been saying that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence. I cannot logically say that gods must exist; I cannot logically say gods cannot exist...and I cannot logically rule the existence of gods out or insist that they exist.



That is a conclusion that you seem to have come to for its utility sake in your argument. If there are gods...there are gods; if there are no gods...there are no gods.

To insist that they are unknowable is, in my opinion, gratuitous. How do you know they are unknowable? They may be "knowable"...and we just do not yet know how to know them.




Perhaps you are right. I guess YHSH was invented, and that YHWH is one of the most absurd, barbaric, disgusting gods ever invented...and I suspect adoration and worship of that thing is the reason for most of what today passes as atheism.

But if you think that gods are irrelevant...and that YHWH appearing would make them relevant...I respect that.



Ancients do seem to be more inventive in that area than we moderns.

That's what you get when you are "far superior".

Had a bad day on the golf course mate?..
God said this through Jesus's mouth-
"Love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

so why don't you explain to us which bit of that you think is absurd, barbaric and disgusting?

Actually, Romeo...I had a good day. I didn't play...I worked as a starter.

YHWH is sickening no matter what Jesus said.

No mate, the words are Gods, not Jesus's..
Look, Jesus said "For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak" (John 12:49)

So I ask you again to explain to us which bit of God's words you think are "sickening"?

Here's a start. Do you want more...I've got plenty.

“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” Leviticus 20-13


"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you." Deuteronomy 20:10

"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9

"Therefore, he who has any of the following defects may not come
forward: he who is blind, or lame, or who has any disfigurement
or malformation, or crippled foot or hand....he may not approach
the veil nor go up to the altar on account of these defects; he
shall not profane these things that are sacred to me, for it is
I, the Lord, who make them sacred." Leviticus 21:18ff

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. [2 Chronicles 15:12-13]


If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. [Deuteronomy 13:7-12]


Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." [Deuteronomy 13:13-19]


The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' [Exodus 31:12-15]



One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. [Leviticus 24:10-16]


For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. [Matthew 15:4-7]

A few more:

At Leviticus 21:16ff, the god of the Bible "spoke to Moses, saying"...

..."No man of your descendants in succeeding generations, who has any defect, may approach to offer the bread of his God.

For any man who has a defect shall not approach: a man blind or lame, who has a marred face or any limb too long, a man who has a broken foot or broken hand, or is a hunchback or a dwarf, or a man who has a defect in his eye, or eczema or scab, or is a eunuch.

No man of the descendants of Aaron the priest, who has a defect shall come near to offer the offerings made by fire to the Lord. He has a defect; he shall not come near to offer the bread of his God.

He may eat the bread of his God, both the most holy and the holy, only he shall not go near the veil or approach the altar, because he has a defect, lest he profane My sanctuaries, for I the Lord sanctify them."




They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. [2 Chronicles 15:12-13]



If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. [Deuteronomy 13:7-12]




Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." [Deuteronomy 13:13-19]


The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' [Exodus 31:12-15]



You should not let a sorceress live. [Exodus 22:17]


A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. [Leviticus 20:27]


Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. [Isaiah 14:21]

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. [Deuteronomy 17:12]


One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. [Leviticus 24:10-16]


For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. [Matthew 15:4-7]

Oh, Romeo...

...thank you for asking.

No offence Frankie but you seem to be cracking up!
And elsewhere you posted a cheap schoolyard "joke" about Christians being thrown to lions as if it was funny!
Looks like Old Nick is finally getting the upper hand over you at last..

Sounds like you are out of ammunition, Romeo.

Such disrespect for the christian institution of marriage. Tsk tsk tsk...

Among "whatever IS", there can be things that are inherently unknowable to us. Right? Like the number of gods (0, 1, 2, an infinity?). Because they are supernatural, you can't count them. If you try, some guy will always come and say you forgot santa clauss or the tooth fairy or whatever.

I argue that such things are therefore irrelevant to our daily lives. They can be safely ignored. They literally don't matter. The only way for them to matter for us, is to ENTER our daily lives, in one way that we can notice.

(Any god or goddess who wants to be relevant can show up on primetime TV. We're tired of Riyanah and K West anyway.)

You said: "If all of humanity could come to the truth of things...namely, that we do not know if there are gods or not...and if there are, we do not know what, if anything, the gods expect of humans...a lot of the problems caused by guesses in those areas could be eased, if not eliminated."

Are we REALLY disagreeing here?

That'll be the day pilgrim!
Now stop yer yakkin' and get them wagons pulled into a circle between the injuns and the waterhole!

There MIGHT BE...which is different from you asserting that a particular (existence of gods) IS.

The existence of gods MAY be unknowable. That does not mean the same thing as "the existence of gods is unknowable."





If they are a part of REALITY...they are a part of nature...and they are not supernatural. And whether you guess that we can count them or not...does not establish that we cannot.




No problem with that. It does seem a daunting task...and certainly SEEMS impossible. But that is different from saying that it IS impossible.



We were not discussing the possible relevancy of gods to our lives, Olivier. We were discussing whether or not gods exist.

I do not know if they do.

Do you?




Okay...then ignore them. That certainly is what I do. But you are in a discussion about whether or not they exist...you really should not let the fact that you (and I) ignore them influence your answer to the question: Do they exist?



I agree that any god who wants to be relevant can establish its relevance.



I honestly do not know with you, Olivier. You seem to disagree with me on damn near everything. And I do not remember you acknowledging that you agree with me on anything so far.

Earlier you said the notion of “acknowledging that not knowing if gods existed” was irrelevant and useless. I replied that I thought…to which I suggested I consider it one of the most useful truths available to humankind.

You asked: What do you do with it.

I replied: If all of humanity could come to the truth of things...namely, that we do not know if there are gods or not...and if there are, we do not know what, if anything, the gods expect of humans...a lot of the problems caused by guesses in those areas could be eased, if not eliminated.

Now you may be saying that you agree.

Why didn’t you just say that when I wrote it?