@joefromchicago,
Quote:One could just as well argue: all intentional actions are undetermined
No, that's incorrect. Intentional actions are determined by intentions.
@litewave,
litewave wrote:
I can only say that if my choice is not determined by my desire/intention then it is not a free choice, no matter what it is determined by.
Maybe if all choices were not related in any way to other actions you might take. It's called weighing options. Some actions may be unforseen, some set up by others. You could get framed for a murder. The person framing you did it using knowledge of your behaviour. Past actions led you to your current predicament, yet it was not all up to you, obviously.
The answer is that humans can possess both, one or the other if desired.
Free will depends on the idea of destiny to exist. And vice versa. Without the eachother, neither would exist and we'd realize we just are, and most likely live the same as we do now, more or less.
Litewave: Suppose, just for the sake of the argument, that you are wrong. What conceivable body of evidence would convince you of it? What conceivable evidence would convince you that free will does exist?
@Thomas,
Quote:Litewave: Suppose, just for the sake of the argument, that you are wrong. What conceivable body of evidence would convince you of it? What conceivable evidence would convince you that free will does exist?
At present, it seems that the body of evidence would need to be comparable to that which would convince me that a square circle does exist.
@litewave,
Not so fast. We know the definition of a square, we know the definition of the circle, and we know the two definitions are incompatible.
By contrast, I can't find any post in this thread where you define "free will". Maybe that's an oversight on my part but ... what
is your definition of free will?
Free will is the release of a majestic sea creature.
@gustavratzenhofer,
It's certainly much more deterministic than a Gustav Ratzenhofer sighting. I'll give you that.
Whatever happened to the Germans, Thomas? Are they still a race?
I miss that group. I was once part of them.
@Thomas,
Quote:By contrast, I can't find any post in this thread where you define "free will". Maybe that's an oversight on my part but ... what is your definition of free will?
The ability to make a free choice. See my argument in post
# 4,004,019
@litewave,
litewave wrote:Quote:By contrast, I can't find any post in this thread where you define "free will". Maybe that's an oversight on my part but ... what is your definition of free will?
The ability to make a free choice.
That's a tautology, not a definition. Please give me a definition.
Trying to define what something or someone cannot do is a slippery slop when you slip. What I mean is, anomalies happen, mircales happen, even with humans. Everyday miracles. I guess it's one of those things you have to experience, then one can believe and see that free will exists.
In fact, the only thing keeping you from arguing for free will is your never-ending will to disprove it.
Have you ever been at a point in time in your life where you're faced with a decision, and the both outcomes seem crystal clear to you?
Example:
A band I played in with three other people wanted to reunite for a show at the end of this summer. Mostly the guy who the band was named after, and the guitar player. The drummer and myself are considerably younger (30-40 years) than the other two, which was one reason I quit in the first place. We have another project going on, and more bands on top of that we're in. As well as school etc. etc.
So my reason for leaving six months ago was treated with bad feelings by the older guys.
Fast forward they wanted to do this show, initially I said yes, but obgligations which were more important to me made me realize I ought not go through with it.
I was also faced with the problem of my word, I don't go back on it. This time I felt it was justified.
When weighing the options, the two truly did seem equal to me. I could not decide. Advice from others didn't help much.
The man whose band it was also only will communicate in email, that was annoying to say the least. So the moment where I had to click 'send' with the news I wasn't going to join them afterall, that was a moment of free will.
Anyone who has ever acted spontaneously once will agree.
Free will exists if you let it.
@Thomas,
Quote:That's a tautology, not a definition. Please give me a definition.
Ok, another try: the ability to exercise ultimate control of your action.
@litewave,
vikorr wrote:Do you see your desires as not being a contributing factor to your reasons?
litewave wrote:Sure, desires contribute to my reasons. Actually, desires themselves are reasons.
You're jumping all over the place, and modifying your theory on the fly to try and repair holes in your system. Your answer is disingenuous, only being a part answer, and being contradictory for the most part. I think Fresco is right - you don't really know what you're trying to say, and so a discussion with you is a lost cause.
@CarbonSystem,
Quote:The man whose band it was also only will communicate in email, that was annoying to say the least. So the moment where I had to click 'send' with the news I wasn't going to join them afterall, that was a moment of free will.
Seems like a moment of throwing dice and let it decide for you. When you have no reason to prefer one option over another you just throw dice, so to speak.
@Thomas,
Quote:what is your definition of free will?
How can litewave define free will when it doesn't exist for him? There's no way for an atheist materialist to arrive at free will and prove he has. He can cut corners and trim his sails and adjust his thermostat as much as he wishes but all he can do is persuade himself that he has free will. And it might be plausible to some. It depends on his audience. It's unproveable and thus a belief.
The Christian religion says we have free will. It's a bottom-liner.
@vikorr,
Quote:You're jumping all over the place, and modifying your theory on the fly to try and repair holes in your system.
Actually, this is the feeling I get from you. I don't know what your point is.
@litewave,
But it wasn't the mentality I had at that moment was certainly not one of 'rolling the dice'. It was a moment of time stopping and pausing until I made the decision. At that moment, my past calculations and thoughts, pros and cons seemed to disappear.
Ever said to yourself ''yes, I am going to do this" ? for any reason?
I can say without a doubt free will and fate coexist.
Do you believe we are all fated to our destiny as we speak for the rest of these lives?
To quote waking life, 'a big deterministic cog vs. a randomly free floating electron'
@litewave,
Quote:Quote:
You're jumping all over the place, and modifying your theory on the fly to try and repair holes in your system.
Actually, this is the feeling I get from you. I don't know what your point is.
How could you litewave? He didn't make a point. He blurted out some assertions.