78
   

Proof of nonexistence of free will

 
 
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 01:04 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Really?

Really. As I said, I don't build on the assumption that everyone's actions are determined but on the assumption that a free choice must be determined by one's desire/intention.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 01:41 pm
@litewave,
And that's begging the question.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 04:10 pm
@litewave,
vikorr wrote:
The issue I guess is that you see hormones, and genetic/trained conditioning as being in 100% control of our lives. You don't believe that they are just an influencing factor, but rather believe that they are the ONLY factor, and consciousness plays no part.

litewave wrote:
No, I don't really care about hormones or genes. I talk about desires/intentions - isn't that consciousness?
No, consciousness is not 'just that'.

After reading your comment about genes and hormones, your argument didn't make any sense, and I had to go back through your posts to see what you were talking about. After going back through your posts, I see you made suppositions that you simply haven't explained, and continue not to explain.
litewave wrote:

There are only 3 possible ways your action can originate:

1) When you have reasons for your action - then the action is the result of those reasons.
litewave wrote:
But I have a logical case for saying that all human actions are caused by reasons
How do you arrive at your reasons?

litewave wrote:
2. If I don't choose my desire Y freely, then my choice X is determined by something I didn't choose freely and hence X is not my free choice.
You've connected that desire must be translated into action. But we humans often have multiple competing desires within ourselves. We choose one action, that may not meet a desire, so a claim (which you may not be making) that a desire must equal action, is in error. In any event, the question comes back again - what causes the desire?
litewave wrote:
I talk about freedom of choice in the ultimate sense. Ultimately you cannot freely choose anything, because you are compelled to your choice by conditions that are outside your control and so ultimately all you choices are outside your control.
You don't specificy what sort of conditions, and why they are out of your control.
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 10:17 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
And that's begging the question.

Why? Do you think that a free choice can be unintentional?
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 10:46 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
How do you arrive at your reasons?

Based on other reasons (then they are determined by those other reasons), or not based on other reasons (then you arrive at them unintentionally).

Quote:
You've connected that desire must be translated into action.

No, the whole argument in my post # 4,004,019 is based on the assumption that a free action must be determined by one's desire. An action that is not free does not have to be determined by one's desire - for example your action of slipping on a banana peel (unless you intended to slip on it).

Quote:
But we humans often have multiple competing desires within ourselves. We choose one action, that may not meet a desire, so a claim (which you may not be making) that a desire must equal action, is in error.

If we choose an action that does not meet a desire then this choice is unintentional (intention = desire) and therefore obviously not free.

Quote:
In any event, the question comes back again - what causes the desire?
A cause, which may be a desire or something else.

Quote:
You don't specificy what sort of conditions, and why they are out of your control.

The conditions are all causes that affect your actions. They are out of your control, in the ultimate sense, because ultimately you cannot freely choose them (as I argued in post # 4,004,019).
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:28 am
@litewave,
Alright, your reply didn't clarify a single thing about what you believe to be the causes of reasons/desires (nor what you clarify what you consider 'conditions outside of our control'), and , definition of freedom aside, that is where the other problem in discussing your theory lays.
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:46 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
Alright, your reply didn't clarify a single thing about what you believe to be the causes of reasons/desires (nor what you clarify what you consider 'conditions outside of our control'), and , definition of freedom aside, that is where the other problem in discussing your theory lays.

Why is it relevant what are causes of reasons/desires? Maybe it's just brain, maybe it's my non-physical consciousness. What does it matter? It doesn't affect my argument.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 04:29 am
@litewave,
You're kidding right? As you claim 'because you have a reason, you don't have free will' (which 'logic' is highly questionable anyway) - can you not see the gigantic grey area in your argument if you don't determine the cause of the 'reasons' / how those 'reasons' are arrived at?
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 04:51 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
You're kidding right? As you claim 'because you have a reason, you don't have free will' (which 'logic' is highly questionable anyway) - can you not see the gigantic grey area in your argument if you don't determine the cause of the 'reasons' / how those 'reasons' are arrived at?

I can only say that if my choice is not determined by my desire/intention then it is not a free choice, no matter what it is determined by.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 05:14 am
@litewave,
Do you see your desires as not being a contributing factor to your reasons?
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 05:32 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
Do you see your desires as not being a contributing factor to your reasons?

Sure, desires contribute to my reasons. Actually, desires themselves are reasons.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 06:01 am
litewave is correct. The only route to a belief in free will is through Christianity. There is no route to free will for an atheist materialist.

So if you believe in free will you are a Christian and any pretence that you are not is an affectation probably designed to get attention or be different or to find excuses for sexual and/or financial irregularities.

Indecision does not prove free will because the action eventually decided upon is pre-determined.
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 06:38 am
@spendius,
Belief in free will is just one of many articles of Christian faith. And if I don't believe in free will it doesn't mean I am an atheist materialist.
oolongteasup
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 06:52 am
@litewave,


will you be postulating that night follows day in your next treatise
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 07:41 am
@oolongteasup,
What exactly is your point?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 08:22 am
@litewave,
litewave wrote:

Quote:
And that's begging the question.

Why? Do you think that a free choice can be unintentional?

That's the wrong question. The question is whether free choice can be undetermined. According to you, it can't be, but then that's where you beg the question.
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 08:36 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
That's the wrong question. The question is whether free choice can be undetermined. According to you, it can't be, but then that's where you beg the question.

Free choice cannot be undetermined because then it would be unintentional.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 08:45 am
@litewave,
litewave wrote:

Quote:
That's the wrong question. The question is whether free choice can be undetermined. According to you, it can't be, but then that's where you beg the question.

Free choice cannot be undetermined because then it would be unintentional.

And that's begging the question.
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:05 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
And that's begging the question.

Why? Can a choice that is undetermined by an intention be intentional?
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:21 am
@litewave,
litewave wrote:

Quote:
And that's begging the question.

Why? Can a choice that is undetermined by an intention be intentional?

Again, you're begging the question.

It's really pretty simple. In order to prove that free will doesn't exist, you can't assume that free choices are determined by anything. That's supposed to be your conclusion, not one of your premises.

Your argument, pared to its essentials, is: all intentional actions are determined, so there's no free will. One could just as well argue: all intentional actions are undetermined, so there is free will. Both arguments are equally unconvincing, because both beg the question.
 

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