82
   

Proof of nonexistence of free will

 
 
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:00 pm
@CarbonSystem,
Quote:
But it wasn't the mentality I had at that moment was certainly not one of 'rolling the dice'. It was a moment of time stopping and pausing until I made the decision. At that moment, my past calculations and thoughts, pros and cons seemed to disappear.

Why did you choose not to join then?

Quote:
Do you believe we are all fated to our destiny as we speak for the rest of these lives?

No, I don't rule out that randomness can interfere.
CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:00 pm
to be clear,
at this point, i'm not really sure if litewave does or does not beleive in free will. because this statement "proof of nonexistence..." of anthing, is bogus.

It's like infinitely zooming in on the limit of an exponential function. You think you're getting where you're going, but never quite get there.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:11 pm
@litewave,
vikorr wrote:
You're jumping all over the place, and modifying your theory on the fly to try and repair holes in your system.

litewave wrote:
Actually, this is the feeling I get from you. I don't know what your point is.

Ugh, do you not follow that I've not personally posted a system theory, and the vast majority of what I've been doing is asking questions, and seeking clarification? Your reply is mostly nonsensical, and that's unfortunately becoming a common quality of your replies. I p

I'll refer to carbonsystems entry - the assertion of yours that you have logical proof of the non-existance of free will is (and this is where I add my bit in) beyond you to be able to articulate your belief.

I can see you don't know what my 'point' is, because your 'system' shows a religious belief without any understanding of what constitutes it.

Two major points, but hardly the complete picture of your posts so far :

-you can't articulate the foundation of the first line in your 'logic' sequence, postulated in your OP

-you wish to discuss ultimate freedom, and make that mean that no freedom exists....which is plain silliness.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:18 pm
@litewave,
You should know litewave that the Marquis de Sade made your argument in the thread starter around 1800. So you're in excellent company. And behaviorists do too. The Materialist Minders lay it on thick.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:36 pm
@gustavratzenhofer,
gustavratzenhofer wrote:

Whatever happened to the Germans, Thomas? Are they still a race?

Sure! That's what I say on the census documents, so it must be true, mustn't it?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:38 pm
@litewave,
litewave wrote:

Quote:
That's a tautology, not a definition. Please give me a definition.

Ok, another try: the ability to exercise ultimate control of your action.

Way overbroad. By this definition, I don't have free will because I lack the control to fly like a bird rather than like a brick.
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:42 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Way overbroad. By this definition, I don't have free will because I lack the control to fly like a bird rather than like a brick.

You lack the control of any action.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:12 pm
Well, I'm glad we have the problem solved then. Free will doesn't exist. The only problem is that that your finding doesn't mean anything, because your definition of it is so overbroad that nothing will ever match it.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:17 pm
@Thomas,
Obviously it doesn't mean anything. Everything's meaningless to an atheist materialist. Everything is the limit. How can anything else match it.
0 Replies
 
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:18 pm
@Thomas,
It seems that this is the definition of free will held by most people, not just me. They believe they are in control of their actions.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:30 pm
@litewave,
"Believe" being the operative word.
0 Replies
 
CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 04:24 pm
burn.
0 Replies
 
CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 04:27 pm
@litewave,
litewave wrote:

Quote:
But it wasn't the mentality I had at that moment was certainly not one of 'rolling the dice'. It was a moment of time stopping and pausing until I made the decision. At that moment, my past calculations and thoughts, pros and cons seemed to disappear.

Why did you choose not to join then?


That's easy, I felt like it. I decided I'd rather set my life on the path I saw ahead by backing down from the gig.

The whole fate only thing is just a huge copout for people who aren't inspired to take any actions that truly matter, or they're jealous of those who do.

Example: Picking up a piece of trash in a town you'll never return to.
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 04:32 pm
@CarbonSystem,
Quote:
That's easy, I felt like it.

So here we have it, a feeling that prompted you not to join the gig. Now, did that feeling just pop up or did you choose to have it?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 09:45 pm
@litewave,
litewave !

What completely escapes you is the concept of "domains of explanation". As soon as the word "self" or "you" is evoked in a domain, so too does the concept of "free will", because persons have meaning only as self sufficient "agents of actions".

Now there are esoteric writers who talk of "self" (small "s") as being "mechanical", a condition for "most of humanity", but this point is made in order evoke the possibility, (through "work") of rising to the level of "Self" which escapes the bonds of its mechanicalness. This reifies rather than eliminates the issue of "free will", thereby remaining in the domain of person/will.

The point is that you too cannot make the claim of "mechanicalness" except by assuming a transcendent position like "Self" which lies outside the standard domain. You fail to do this, and like the esotericists, must beg the question of determinism (as others have pointed out above).

And think of it in terms of physics : "existence" of "force" say, is limited to domains where there are agentive bodies ("particles", "planets" etc) as functional entities in their own right. In sub-atomic domains such "existence" becomes meaningless, "force" as we know it in a Newtonian sense becomes inapplicable. What you are attempting to do is keep your "bodies" (you, me, etc) and at the same time argue for the "non-existence" of what gives such bodies functional status, namely "free will".





litewave
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 11:46 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
Now there are esoteric writers who talk of "self" (small "s") as being "mechanical", a condition for "most of humanity", but this point is made in order evoke the possibility, (through "work") of rising to the level of "Self" which escapes the bonds of its mechanicalness.

If the choices of this "Self" are not determined by desires/intentions then they are unintentional. On the other hand, if the choices of this "Self" are determined by desires/intentions then these desires/intentions cannot be intentionally chosen, as I showed in my argument in post # 4,004,019, and so the choices of the "Self" are determined by something that the "Self" didn't intentionally choose.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 02:02 am
@litewave,
No. You need to read Gurdjieff with respect to the cosmological status of what he calls "Self". Simplistic traditional logic, on which you rely, does not operate at that level.

We may of course be tempted to dismiss such esoteric systems as mere "ramblings", but in any case we are still left with the point that traditional logic (and "causality")also do not "work" in many areas of sub-atomic physics. In general, issues of "existence" (ontology) are inextricably bound up with functionality (usage). Indeed, some philosophers like Heidegger have taken the extreme view that "existence" (Existenz) is only applicable to operation of "self" (Dasein).
litewave
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 03:03 am
@fresco,
Quote:
No. You need to read Gurdjieff with respect to the cosmological status of what he calls "Self". Simplistic traditional logic, on which you rely, does not operate at that level.

So what kind of logic operates there?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 10:09 am
@litewave,
Gurdjieff adopts a tertiary system ("law of three") at the cosmological level, as opposed to the binary system of traditional logic.

(NB. Mathematically there can be multiplicity of coherent "logics", including "fuzzy" and "many valued" , some of which reject "the law of the excluded middle" thereby rendering a proposition and its negation to be simultaneously valid).

It is significant to this discussion that the move from "self" to "Self" for Gurdjieff involves the tertiary system of the three gunas (Hindu cosmological forces) in which the third guna sattva involves the cessation of normal "desires of self". That is "choice" and "desire" are no longer meaningful at the level of Self, such being ephemeral appendages of the "self" left behind.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 10:43 am
@litewave,
lw--what fresco means by "Simplistic traditional logic, on which you rely, does not operate at that level."-- is that he is above you in the scale of intellectual geniuses. It's the RIC again. (The reverse invidious comparison.) It is very common on A2K and in the pub and bus queues. It is automatically assumed at a very simplistic level that the assertion that you rely on simplistic traditional logic necessarily means that fresco is relying on complex intellectual logic on the cutting edge of modernity.

There can be no free will for an atheist. End of story.
0 Replies
 
 

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