Proof of nonexistence of free will

@guigus,

Do you honestly believe some report of a study could possibly change anything?
How? How the flyin' hell are you going to figure out that babies count before they do anything?

You need to go into these 'thoughts' before you just accept them, and I mean REALLY go into them.

Think of this, how would YOU personally go about figuring something like this out? How would YOU go about trying to decipher what a baby first learns? Sit down right next to him and take notes? Are you out of your mind? You could never in a trillion years figure out what's going on inside a babies' head.

I know you're just dying to throw words at me like 'scientific methods' and 'studies' and 'research' and all this other crap. The funny thing is you KNOW it's crap, but you keep hoping it will 'stick'. Now who it is you're trying to get it to 'stick' for is beyond me.

Do you honestly believe that 'numbers' where here 'before you got here'? That they didn't come from people JUST LIKE YOU? If they were here 'before' you, then where the hell were they? In the ocean? In the sky? Out in space? Up your fathers' ass?

This is such an easy one and you need to get it 'out of the way'.

It's a combination of characteristics(concept), and it's keeping you from un-covering who you are.

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@JPLosman0711,

JPLosman0711 wrote:

Why 'surrender' who you are over to some imaginary numbers? I'm not about to give credit to 'numbers' for anything and neither should you.

I do not give credit to numbers, I give credit to people. But only, of course, if I believe they deserve it.

JPLosman0711 wrote:

You say that they have 'helped' us but it only appears that way. This 'helping' is illusionary, it came out of the 'positive' effect of human interaction.

When you see a hundred guys coming in your direction with anger you can count them long before any "human interaction" happens, can't you? It is better you can.

JPLosman0711 wrote:

However that positive effect is only so because of the INITIAL 'negative' interactions. If everyone had just left everyone alone from birth, there wouldn't even be 'philosophy forums, schools, governments, houses, numerical systems, history, science, teachers, cars, concepts' or any other of this UNNECESSARY phoney bull-oney. You 'experience' the negativity of human interaction(the majority of 'life') in order to experience the 'positivity' of it. However, BOTH are illusions.

So to you everything is illusory. No wonder you regard numbers as illusory...

JPLosman0711 wrote:

You are Be-ing, even as you read this right now. You are neither up nor down, black nor white, good nor bad.

How about having wings?

JPLosman0711 wrote:

You just are, and you are all that there 'is'.

So I guess I don't need that loan anymore... If I am all that is, then that money already belongs to my being! Man, that's amazing! I don't need money, or food, or water! I can fly! Wow! I simply am! You are a genius! If I were you (wait: I am!), I would publish a book and get rich!

1 Reply

@guigus,

So then you are saying that 'people' created numbers, and also that they deserve credit for it? They created these 'numbers' so they could easily identify with everybody else that's 'above the ground' in order to achieve certainty. Like I said before, the all-to-popular certainty of being able to 'compare notes' with Joe Blow standing next to you.

When did it become 'necessary' to count how many guys are coming at you? You could use countless metaphorical arguments to 'prove' just about anything, that doesn't give it validity.

Yes, I am aware I used the word 'countless' in the sentence above and we're talking about numbers. Please don't spit that in my face, I'm aware of that 'mistake'.

You never needed that loan(green paper) and you never really wanted it either. Other people gave you that 'idea' when they 'interrupted' you from Be-ing.

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@JPLosman0711,

JPLosman0711 wrote:

So then you are saying that 'people' created numbers, and also that they deserve credit for it? They created these 'numbers' so they could easily identify with everybody else that's 'above the ground' in order to achieve certainty. Like I said before, the all-to-popular certainty of being able to 'compare notes' with Joe Blow standing next to you.

When did it become 'necessary' to count how many guys are coming at you? You could use countless metaphorical arguments to 'prove' just about anything, that doesn't give it validity.

Yes, I am aware I used the word 'countless' in the sentence above and we're talking about numbers. Please don't spit that in my face, I'm aware of that 'mistake'.

You never needed that loan(green paper) and you never really wanted it either. Other people gave you that 'idea' when they 'interrupted' you from Be-ing.

Hey, you are totally convinced you are "all that is," right? And so you don't need any money, right? Then why don't you give all your money to me?

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Hey guys, is there in this forum a suicide bomber so I can try to convince him not to blow himself up?

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@guigus,

Sure. What's your address?

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@JPLosman0711,

JPLosman0711 wrote:

Sure. What's your address?

Everywhere! I am all that is, remember?

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Now something of real interest:

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26421/?ref=rss

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@guigus,

It's funny, you'll take the time to 'mess around' with me, but won't take me sincerely.

My suggestion is that you are not really on this forum to 'learn', you simply want to share your 'opinions'(point of view) and feed off of the acceptance you receive. Then if anyone should proceed to say something that might nudge you off that 'ground', you send them packing by barking them off like a dog defending his territory.

That's fine with me, you're the one wasting you're time.

1 Reply

@JPLosman0711,

JPLosman0711 wrote:

It's funny, you'll take the time to 'mess around' with me, but won't take me sincerely.

Sincerely, it had become impossible for me to take you seriously.

JPLosman0711 wrote:

My suggestion is that you are not really on this forum to 'learn', you simply want to share your 'opinions'(point of view) and feed off of the acceptance you receive.

And, I suppose, you are here to teach me?

JPLosman0711 wrote:

Then if anyone should proceed to say something that might nudge you off that 'ground', you send them packing by barking them off like a dog defending his territory.

I suspect you don't know the difference between "barking" someone and making fun of him... And don't worry, I am still firmly standing on the ground. At least until the next earthquake.

JPLosman0711 wrote:

That's fine with me, you're the one wasting you're time.

That wasn't a total waste of time, I had some fun. You gave rise to some good jokes.

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All you need to know about free will!

http://www.youtube.com/user/CultOfDusty#p/u/32/Ttaq39-4yCs

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@litewave,

By unintentional, do you mean by accident, or random?

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if anyone deny's the fact of free will then explain to me the choice of getting really drunk and doing something really foolish such as starting a fight with someone else opossed to staying home and reading a book. or explain to me how there is not free will involved in deciding to sleep with another married mans wife or another married women's husband?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

or to give physical evidence. explain to me how it is not free will for me to use my very computer as a tool of either harm or goodness. (example) I can either use this computer in a non judgemental way and teach as well as learn on this website doing good, or can use this computer as an evil tool and do nothing all day but study about bombs and make one and blow people up or study into hacking and destroy someones life? How am I not making a conscious dicission into what the end result will be for myself as well as others i may harm in the process?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Although there is a will to the cause of your actions that you call yours, that will on itself proves to be insufficient to justify them...thus bare in mind that your very willing, is previously driven by a compelling set of intricate (phenomenal) causes, which condition in any conceivable potential direction the outcome of what you consciously perceive as being a decision taken by "you", your mind...free will is no short of simply being a very convincing, convenient and persistent illusion that we all insist in buying up !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Although there is a will to the cause of your actions that you call yours, that will on itself proves to be insufficient to justify them...thus bare in mind that your very willing, is previously driven by a compelling set of intricate (phenomenal) causes, which condition in any conceivable potential direction the outcome of what you consciously perceive as being a decision taken by "you", your mind

correct you, your mind FREE will- the FREE choice between what is right and wrong. and explain to me how people who are born mentally ill previously chose that set of intricate (phenomenal) causes? Or explain to me one person who decided to go to war at a young age only to be severly wounded for their life would not want to come back and do things differently. The whole path of my past makes me want to be better for the future, not the other way around or not even that this have already been set in motion. I can either right now this very second post this message or not (free will) and after you reading it you can either respond or not (free will) and after reading your response I can either choose to agree to disagree or we can keep going back and forth to try to see each others point( Free Will) it was in no way previously set in motion, I found this website yesterday. if it was previously set in motion some kind of re incaration or something then i would of had the feeling of deja vu or something to prove that theory from a past life.

Although there is a will to the cause of your actions that you call yours, that will on itself proves to be insufficient to justify them

And just because your will to the cause of your actions is insufficant in your defintion does not mean that it wasn't a free choice you made or if you believe it was already set it doesn't mean it was not ALREADY a free choice you had previously made.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

I WILL SHOW YOU FLAT OUT THAT THIS IS FREE WILL! I am telling you flat out right now that in every way i want to respond to whatever you type so that we can feed off each others perspective...but to prove it is free will I am going to force myself after i post this to obstand from posting under this particular topic for exactly one hour! carefully watch the time. i will re write in one hr!

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

it has been exactly one hr. and I am rewriting my post now. in the beginning I almost felt axious because i wanted to stay on here and go back and forth with you and debate to teach and learn. but forced myself to stay away for exactly one hr. I did reload to see if you posted and seen u hadnt but then after that I did not even reload again to see as if you posted or not. i made the free choice as to not even look even if i had seen that you had responded. Previously after my previous post and after reading your post i wanted to stay on here and keep typing that was my initial choice if things were already set in motion and no free will. and seeing that you had not posted I probably would have still at least typed another post but i FREELY chose not to do so.and obstand for one hr. and my perception right now, not previously, or unfreely, or even previously set in motion because my previous thought was to stay on here and debate. My perception right now and not previously set in motion is that you did not post because you knew i would be faithful to my word and not be on here for an hr. and i suspect that after reading this you may or may not come back on now that the hr is up and re type and we can either continue like we would have done one hr before. or again we can FREELY make the choice to not do so again. If it were Previously set in motion and I did not force myslelf to stay away, then consuqently I would have never even had the notion that I was going to end up obstanding and pre concieved that i was going to stay on here and debate. and because it was preconcieved or set in motion I had in a sense no choice but to stay on here and debate with you. but I didnt do that. I had to force myself but i withstood! end of debate in my book.

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The proof that the world is deterministic follows from the fact that everything causes everything. The so-called Universal Causation Theorem states that everything that has ever existed, exists, or will exist is a necessary and sufficient cause of anything that has ever existed, exists, or will exist. By the definition of determinism, then, according to which events are always caused by other events, it follows that the world is deterministic.

Whether or not people call certain events "decisions" or not is an entirely different argument. We could easily argue that since we "decide" what meal to eat on a restaurant menu, that we do in fact have some sort of "free will." So whether or not we have free will is not decided by a proof of determinism, as we have above. But, as some would argue, is highly suggestive in proving the lack of free will.

For more on the Universal Causation Theorem involved in the above proof, visit: http://sites.google.com/site/actionreactiontheory/

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@browser32,

A simplistic explanation for existentialism. Universal causation has many definitions and interpretations.

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Proof of nonexistence of free will

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