@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
A simplistic explanation for existentialism. Universal causation has many definitions and interpretations.
The best of which is nothing.
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
your argument for free will goes along the lines of "before i did X, i thought about X, and whether or not i should do X" now, you can give countless examples of this, and while it is true that the action is preceded by the thought process, that thought process is in turn preceded by the neurons firing in your brain, which you have no control over, for free will there would need to be some sort of secondary mind that controls the firing process, thus creating free thought, however this mind would not be physical, so would need some sort of supernatural force to exist
your argument for free will goes along the lines of "before i did X, i thought about X, and whether or not i should do X" now, you can give countless examples of this, and while it is true that the action is preceded by the thought process, that thought process is in turn preceded by the neurons firing in your brain, which you have no control over, for free will there would need to be some sort of secondary mind that controls the firing process, thus creating free thought, however this mind would not be physical, so would need some sort of supernatural force to exist @xxspademasterxx
@shanemcd3,
Good points: free thought is impossible when we must communicate by language which controls our thought process, and we are born into an environment already influenced by their culture.
Knowledge is not bias-free.
@shanemcd3,
shanemcd3 wrote:
your argument for free will goes along the lines of "before i did X, i thought about X, and whether or not i should do X" now, you can give countless examples of this, and while it is true that the action is preceded by the thought process, that thought process is in turn preceded by the neurons firing in your brain, which you have no control over, for free will there would need to be some sort of secondary mind that controls the firing process, thus creating free thought, however this mind would not be physical, so would need some sort of supernatural force to exist @xxspademasterxx
Free will is indetermination, and indetermination is an inherent feature of all there is, including neurons. The only "supernatural force" here is determinism.
(This rotten "neuron" conception of you own though, in addition to being exceedingly poor, is a fundamentally alienated one---stop trying to describe your experience of though or decision as if you were a corps under autopsy by yourself: put yourself in your own shoes.)
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Good points: free thought is impossible when we must communicate by language which controls our thought process, and we are born into an environment already influenced by their culture.
Knowledge is not bias-free.
You are confusing "free thought" with getting "free of thought" (usually known as "death").
@guigus,
Show me why my opinions are wrong; we're talking about "free thought," not death. Life is necessary for the basic premise of thought; there's no confusion on my part.
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Show me why my opinions are wrong; we're talking about "free thought," not death. Life is necessary for the basic premise of thought; there's no confusion on my part.
What you call "free thought" is just an abstraction---content without form. Our thought is free when we overcome our prejudices and conceptual mistakes, understanding how things really are. For example, do you know how our financial system works? Here is a video actually talking about freedom and free will:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bEzOBBcEs8
@guigus,
You wrote,
Quote:Our thought is free when we overcome our prejudices and conceptual mistakes, understanding how things really are.
How can one overcome prejudices and conceptual mistakes when we are bombarded by language and culture from infancy? Doesn't the fact that most people follow in the parent's language and culture prove the almost impossible task to be free?
this "rotten neuron conception" of mine, quite simply isn't mine, its a fact, thoughts are created by neuron firing patterns in the brain, if you think otherwise i suggest you have a faulty firing pattern. and free will and determinism are two seperate issues, the non-existence of free will does not automatically mean that the world is determined. quantum mechanics suggests that the universe is governed by probabilities, although there is also a different school of thought that suggests that there are hidden variables, and if it is proved true that there are hidden variables at work, it will prove the non-existence of free will, since at the beginning of the universe, everything was determined, and the emergence of life could not change this, since that which is determined can not suddenly become indeterminite, it is illogical
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
You wrote,
Quote:Our thought is free when we overcome our prejudices and conceptual mistakes, understanding how things really are.
How can one overcome prejudices and conceptual mistakes when we are bombarded by language and culture from infancy? Doesn't the fact that most people follow in the parent's language and culture prove the almost impossible task to be free?
You are not bombarded with language: you are bombarded with prejudices and misconceptions, as well as with knowledge and concepts without which you could not survive, and all this is made possible by language. That's called education. Without it, you couldn't be here criticizing it, and even couldn't be here.
@shanemcd3,
shanemcd3 wrote:
this "rotten neuron conception" of mine, quite simply isn't mine, its a fact, thoughts are created by neuron firing patterns in the brain, if you think otherwise i suggest you have a faulty firing pattern.
We observed (that's what science does) that without a brain and neurons there is no thought. And we are even trying to replace neurons by something else, like memristors, for example (did you hear about them?). These are the facts. What you are doing is to reduce thought to a neuron firing pattern, which is definitely not a fact. The fundamental difference is this: a neuron firing pattern is an externally observed phenomenon, while your thought is an inner experience of yours. The same way you can try to reduce the latter to the former (materialism), you can also do the opposite (idealism), and both are mistaken.
shanemcd3 wrote:and free will and determinism are two seperate issues, the non-existence of free will does not automatically mean that the world is determined.
Are you able to defend free will and determinism at once? Just asking.
shanemcd3 wrote:quantum mechanics suggests that the universe is governed by probabilities, although there is also a different school of thought
Sorry, but quantum mechanics is not a "school of thought": it is an exceedingly well-succeeded
physical theory, which gave us this very technology for typing our posts in.
shanemcd3 wrote:that suggests that there are hidden variables, and if it is proved true that there are hidden variables at work, it will prove the non-existence of free will, since at the beginning of the universe, everything was determined, and the emergence of life could not change this, since that which is determined can not suddenly become indeterminite, it is illogical
What is illogical is the idea that everything is determined by another thing, since that leads to a first cause, which must not be determined by anything---no matter how many worlds you throw on it.
(There is a way though by which everything is determined, but you are not yet ready for that one.)
Again, a much more practical (and urgent) discussion of free will:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bEzOBBcEs8
@guigus,
The 'they' and the 'world' go to make up the essential constitution of Dasein, each and every Dasein exists as always-already-having-been.
In other words, you are dy-ing(Be-ing) from the day you're born until the day of your demise. Due to the uncertainty of just when your demise will come creates an issue for you and so you avoid Be-ing at almost any cost.
Now, if you do not know who you are, you remain a 'slave' to proving your existence 'for' the 'they' and the rest of the 'world', and existing as always-already-having-been, you'll still be a 'slave' to the 're-enactment'.
This is why Alan Watts said:
"Man has free will to the extent that he knows who he is, not otherwise."
One more thing, the 'they' doesn't mean just anybody who isn't 'you'. We are all criminals and victims of the 'they'.
How can you say that without a brain and neurons there would be no thought, but at the same time that it is wrong to reduce thought to neuron firing patterns? Which is it? Is thought due to neuron activity or not? The mind is a physical process, any other interpretation is based on pure speculation, as it is not possible to prove that which is not physical. Besides, perhaps a brain and neurons are not needed for thought, although in humans it certainly is, that is carbon chauvinism, it is not a proven fact. And yes, quantum mechanics is a well proven, physical theory, however there are different interpretations of it, while most would say that the universe is governed by probabilitys, others would say that there are hidden variables at work, and we just have not yet discovered them. And lets presume that the big bang was a random event, that does not prevent it from becoming determinite as soon as it came into being, as an analogy, imagine a ball on top of a hill, and at some stage i randomly push it down, although it began as an indeterminite event, as soon as i push it, its path becomes fixed, it becomes determinite. On the issue of defending both free will and determinism, i really do not know, any thoughts on the matter? Personally i do not believe in free will or determinism, in that the future is not fixed due to quantum uncertainty, but that it does not automatically give rise to free will. And if you have a theory on determinism then please share it with us as we are all here to learn and understand as best we can, to gain new insight from as many viewpoints as we can, yours sincerly, shane
@shanemcd3,
The issue can entirely be reduced to causality...its not about me/you/us being able to predict or to know what will happen but instead on me believing there are relations of cause and effect...that means that even when I can´t predict the outcome of an event due to complexity I still can believe it has a cause and a pre determinate path...
freedom is not about the uncertainty of knowledge but rather about the uncertainty on what will happen whether I know it or not, given a common cause...I am one of those who bets is neck that regarding QM there are still hidden non disclosed variables at work...is either that or one of these days we all will be speaking with mickey mousse...
( it might well come as an emergent phenomena
)
Besides, on a closer look if it where to be true that Freedom and uncertainty actually exist the consequence would precisely be the opposite of what people expect...that is, between my willing and what would happen there would be no relation of causality due to uncertainty...it might well be that I wished one thing and quite another came to happen...or are we humans a special case ?
...meaning there is uncertainty everywhere with the exception when we us humans are willing for anything...how convenient dumb and presumptuous is that ?
@JPLosman0711,
JPLosman0711 wrote:The 'they' and the 'world' go to make up the essential constitution of Dasein, each and every Dasein exists as always-already-having-been.
Sorry, but you have been born some day, and before that you didn't exist. So it is just plain false that you always already have been. Likewise, you are neither Jesus Christ nor Napoleon.
