20
   

Amanda Knox

 
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 01:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
I have a great deal of respect for Derschowitz but in this case I feel he's wrong.

The US Constitution as amended trumps any sort of treaty with foreign powers. The fifth amendment reads in part:

Quote:
Nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb ...


Attempting to send Amanda Knox back to Italy, particularly given the circumstances of this case, could result in riots and/or insurrection in Washington state and the North West. A government which tried it would pay dearly.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 01:17 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

A conviction may be thrown out for cause in the US but an exoneration cannot be. Amanda Knox had been found innocent by an appellate court in Italy and the state insisted on retrying her.

We (and the Italian law) know "appeal" and "revision" (legal dictionaries translate that to "an appeal on points of law" - which is wrong, because it isn't an appeal)

A revision nor an appeal do create a double jeopardy.

gungasnake
 
  0  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 01:21 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
We (and the Italian law) know "appeal" and "revision" (legal dictionaries translate that to "an appeal on points of law" - which is wrong, because it isn't an appeal)

A revision nor an appeal do create a double jeopardy.


Your statement here does not read clearly enough to be understandable. Could you try to state it a bit more clearly or explain the point in a bit more detail?
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 01:30 pm
@gungasnake,
And that's exactly why you (and others) don't understand it: appeal and revision are different legal procedures unknown in the US-law.

And sorry, I'm not going to summarise here what law students have to study over several months.

I want to add: if this really would be double jeopardy - why had no-one before taken these cases from one of the 47 countries to the ECHR? (Italy, for instance, has hundreds cases there ... accused complaining about the duration of cases)
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 02:04 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
The ECHR was established in 1959 (initially)/1998 (permanent).

I've just looked the various rulings: why, in Justicia's name, had no-one before brought a single case from one of 47 member countries to the ECHR complaining about double jeopardy?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  4  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 02:31 pm

Tourism will take a hit. I think the media will ensure polarisation of opinion, and great resentment...an easy task, on the face of it. Journalists and lawyers will be rubbing their hands.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 05:03 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
oralloy wrote:
However, my first thought is that Raffaele was nowhere near that area, and the Italians just arrested him and then claimed that's where he was. We're talking Italy here after all.

However, I did not think a passport was required to travel in Europe. I am not sure why surrendering one's passport would make travel across European borders out of bounds.

He isn't arrested since it's no final court sentence.
He was just stopped to inform him about the ban to leave the country.

Passports/ID-cards are required in Europe like anywhere else.
You only must (!) not show them when crossing a border between Schengen-countries.

And would that include the border that Raffaele was supposedly nearby?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 05:06 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
They can't keep Albanians OUT of Italy, what makes you think they can keep one guy IN Italy if the guy really wants to leave??

I would be cautious about this "Raffaele near the border" stuff in the news right now.

Most likely they arrested him nowhere near any border, and are now lying about where they found him.

They do stuff like that. And they do it a lot.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 05:08 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
It's not like they made a snap judgement. They have spent literally years making the determination that she is guilty. I think you saw her photograph and fell in love and want to protect her. Open your eyes.

The snap judgement was made at the time of her arrest in 2007. The Perugia police focused on Amanda Knox because of her unconventional behavior.

You are incorrect here. Amanda did not engage in any unconventional behavior.


wandeljw wrote:
In early 2008, I also believed Knox and Sollecito were guilty.

I've addressed this with you before. Next time you hear news reports that make it sound like someone is clearly guilty, please stop and consider that those reports may all be lies.


wandeljw wrote:
Later information came out about incompetent evidence collection. In the Perugia police's defense, I believe they were simply inexperienced in dealing with murder cases.

Would that justify them fabricating evidence in order to persecute someone they knew was innocent?


wandeljw wrote:
There is much room for doubt.

No there isn't.

Can you name one single reason for suspecting Amanda or Raffaele?

Can you name one single reason for thinking Guede did not carry out the crime alone?


wandeljw wrote:
Under Italian law, they are treated as innocent until they have exhausted all appeals.

Are we to gloss over the fact that Italy is completely ignoring both Italian and European law in this case?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 05:24 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
Me, I still don't know (naturally enough). I don't mean that in the philosophical sense people on a2k are kicking around lately, but just ordinary sense of sureness.

You're like a Holocaust denier who deliberately ignores all the facts and evidence, and then feigns an innocent expression and says "I just don't know".

I'm not sure that you don't know the truth and aren't maliciously lying. But if you really are this vast fountain of blithering ignorance, your ignorance is the direct result of your militant refusal to consider any facts or evidence.


ossobuco wrote:
Having just read the Guede skype item,

Ah, yes. Your link to the hate site. Do you frequent white supremacist sites as well?


ossobuco wrote:
it occurs to me it's conceiveable, though not to me at all likely, that it was "none of the above".

Conceivable that Guede did not do it?

The killer broke in through the window using the exact MO that Guede used to break in through windows.

Guede always carried a knife when he broke into people's homes.

Guede left his palm print under Kercher's corpse, in Kercher's blood.

Guede left his DNA in Kercher's vagina. The evidence shows that Kercher was raped after her throat was cut, but before she died.

Guede left his DNA on the purse that Kercher's money was stolen from.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 05:39 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
Your thread could have been an interesting discussion on European justice systems, osso. I feel sorry that so many outrageous comments have ruined the discussion.

This case is an ongoing atrocity. If a thread about this case were to become a mere interesting discussion about differing judicial systems, that would be a pretty awful whitewash of what is happening. I think having it degenerate into name-calling would be preferable.

That said, there is a reason it has degenerated into name-calling. One side militantly refuses to consider any facts or evidence, and engages solely in name-calling. The other side would love to discuss facts and evidence, but faced with a bunch of name-calling thugs, feels they have no choice but to respond in kind.

Since ossobuco is one of those thugs who refuse to discuss facts and evidence, blame for any degeneration of the thread can be placed pretty squarely on ossobuco herself.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 05:58 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
We (and the Italian law) know "appeal" and "revision" (legal dictionaries translate that to "an appeal on points of law" - which is wrong, because it isn't an appeal)
A revision nor an appeal do create a double jeopardy.

It works as a soundbite though. If the administration is looking for a convenient political excuse to deny extradition, that will work for them.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 05:59 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Your statement here does not read clearly enough to be understandable. Could you try to state it a bit more clearly or explain the point in a bit more detail?

Essentially all these levels of trial and appeal are considered subparts of one single trial. Amanda and Raffaele will not be considered convicted or acquitted "for real" until Cassation signs off on the verdict.

Having this process take so long would be a violation of the right to a speedy trial if people were held in jail during this process. It is therefore against Italian law to incarcerate someone until the process has completed.

It was therefore illegal for Italy to have held Amanda and Raffaele those four years they were in prison.

However, the fact that all these trials and appeals are considered subparts of "one giant trial" means that there isn't any repeated trial, legally speaking.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Fri 31 Jan, 2014 06:10 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
Tourism will take a hit.

Good.

Things will really get fun if Guede decides to resume raping and killing (not necessarily in that order) young women from Italian universities.

I do hope Guede doesn't kill anyone else. I really want the Kerchers to have to watch as Guede lives out a prosperous and comfortable life as a welcome member of the community.

But if Guede decides to go chop up more young women, nothing boosts university attendance quite like a big pile of dead students.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Sat 1 Feb, 2014 12:27 am
@oralloy,
Nobody's going to convince any more than a handful of US citizens that this is anything other than double jeopardy.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2014 12:47 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Nobody's going to convince any more than a handful of US citizens that this is anything other than double jeopardy.

True.

I will be surprised if there is ever any extradition request though.

Will Italy ask for extradition while the European Court of Human Rights is still considering the case?

I doubt it.

Is there any chance that any of Amanda and Raffaele's convictions will ever pass muster with the European Court of Human Rights?

I doubt it.

The person who is in danger right now is Raffaele. Italy might put him back in prison. And they might hand his inheritance over to the Kerchers.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Sat 1 Feb, 2014 03:53 am
I don't like the Mail, but it sums up the feeling over here.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfVhXJECMAAg11r.jpg
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sat 1 Feb, 2014 04:23 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
I don't like the Mail, but it sums up the feeling over here.

The only shameless people in this case are the scumbag Kerchers, who actually got two innocent people sent to prison for four years in the course of their obscene quest to steal their money, and who actually might still succeed in stealing that money.


I'm just glad for Karma.

Guede cut Kercher's throat and then raped her as the blood was gushing from her neck. Then he took her phones, locked her in her bedroom, and went out dancing at a nightclub as she slowly drowned in her own blood on the floor of her bedroom.

It is truly going to be a delight to see Guede walking free after having served only the shortest of sentences. I hope the Kercher scumbags enjoy that spectacle as much as I'm going to. Very Happy
McTag
 
  4  
Sat 1 Feb, 2014 04:46 am
@oralloy,

Quote:
You're a freak who gets off on demonizing innocent people.


You talking to the man (!) in the mirror again?
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sat 1 Feb, 2014 04:52 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Most likely they arrested him nowhere near any border, and are now lying about where they found him.

They do stuff like that. And they do it a lot.
In that case, he and his lawyer had - additionally to all the others - lied as well.

Lawyers and convicted are known for such ...
 

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