20
   

Amanda Knox

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 04:32 am

It looks like from TV footage that Raffaele is in court!

What in the world is he thinking?!?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 04:35 am
@oralloy,

sigh....bump

Rolling Eyes
McTag
 
  2  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 05:18 am
@oralloy,

Guilty. She should fry.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 05:44 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
Guilty.

Stop lying, scumbag. The evidence has been clear from the beginning that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.


McTag wrote:
She should fry.

Someone should dig up the dead whore's corpse and feed it through a wood chipper.

That'd make for a YouTube video that I'd trouble myself to download even on my dialup connection. Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 08:41 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I've known the poster known here as 'oralloy' for years, on other boards. My conclusion is that he is a madman and a would-be murderer. Do not feed him, however fun that seems.


You pretty much just told me everything I need to know. About YOU.....
gungasnake
 
  0  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 08:48 am
U.S. legal experts say that even if convicted, the U.S. common-law injunction against double jeopard would override any extradition arrangement there may have ever been with Italy and she would not be extradited.

For that matter, Italy has in fact ratified the seventh protocol of the European Convention on Human Rights which forbids double jeopardy. I don't even see what the whops think they're doing here. Possible that speaking a soon to be dead language might be affecting their minds somehow or other...
gungasnake
 
  0  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 08:50 am
The European Convention on Human Rights:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 10:06 am
@gungasnake,
It is an appeal against the '09 convictions for murder. Perhaps something unknown in US-law, but very common here in Europe ...and totally conform the European Convention on Human Rights (see the various rulings of the European Court of Human Rights about this).
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 10:20 am
At about 18:00h local time – in just 40 minutes (17:00h GMT), it will be clear when the verdict will come.
oralloy
 
  0  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 10:30 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Olivier5 wrote:
I've known the poster known here as 'oralloy' for years, on other boards. My conclusion is that he is a madman and a would-be murderer. Do not feed him, however fun that seems.

You pretty much just told me everything I need to know. About YOU.....

Olivier is a brilliant sociopath. If he is not in "sadistic jerk" mode, he is a worthwhile conversationalist. But make sure not to ever let Olivier catch you defenseless in a dark alleyway.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 10:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The convention does not appear to allow of any exceptions and Italy has signed it. Knox and her friend were acquitted by an appellate court in 2011 citing lack of evidence and the government appears to be acting illegally in trying them a third time since they don't like the appellate court's decision.
oralloy
 
  0  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 10:35 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
U.S. legal experts say that even if convicted, the U.S. common-law injunction against double jeopard would override any extradition arrangement there may have ever been with Italy and she would not be extradited.

For that matter, Italy has in fact ratified the seventh protocol of the European Convention on Human Rights which forbids double jeopardy. I don't even see what the whops think they're doing here. Possible that speaking a soon to be dead language might be affecting their minds somehow or other...

By Italian law, this entire process of "multiple trials/appeals/etc" legally counts as a single trial.

Because it takes so long for such a process to come to a conclusion, they forbid incarcerating people until after the process has concluded. This means that it was not merely unjust, but outright illegal, for Italy to have held Amanda and Raffaele in prison for four years. However, legally speaking, making this all count as a single trial means it does not count as double jeopardy.

But that does not mean that the US government will not cite double jeopardy as their reason for denying an extradition request (should Italy have the audacity to make such a request). Diplomatically speaking, they'll just want something that sounds good to the masses. Legal accuracy will not be important.

I really doubt that Italy will ever be in any position to request extradition however. I'm pretty sure they will have to wait until after the European Court of Human Rights is done addressing the appeal before they request extradition. And I'm very sure the European Court of Human Rights is going to overturn every single conviction the Italians make against Amanda and/or Raffaele.

I also doubt the Italians would have the audacity to even ask us for extradition. However, ultimately the main barrier to an extradition request is going to be the fact that the European Court of Human Rights is going to overturn any and all convictions against Amanda and Raffaele.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 10:36 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
The convention does not appear to allow of any exceptions and Italy has signed it.
Indeed. But it doesn't say, appeals are not allowed, isn't it?
If that would be so ... most countries (= all with a similar criminal law system, based on the Code Napoleon and Roman Law) had to be abolished.

Our (Germany's) court system - characterised by being specialist, regional, and hierarchically integrated at the federal level - had to be abolished as well ...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 10:39 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
By Italian law, this entire process of "multiple trials/appeals/etc" legally counts as a single trial.
Same would be here. (Well, here, it always would get a different order number at a higher court, and when given back to a/the lower court, it gets a new order number again - but generally spoken, it's still the same trial.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 11:02 am
@Walter Hinteler,
While waiting, if the verdict will come today and when ... this thoughtful comment piece really is worth reading.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 11:07 am
This appears to be a fairly good description of the Italian legal system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZIxNX7jXOo
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 11:08 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Knox and her friend were acquitted by an appellate court in 2011 citing lack of evidence and the government appears to be acting illegally in trying them a third time since they don't like the appellate court's decision.

The retrial (if it could be called a trial, more on that in a minute) was ordered by a higher level court.

The higher court ruled (contrary to evidence) that there was more than one person involved in the crime, and ordered the lower court to find and convict those other people. They did not give the lower court any ability to look at anyone other than Amanda or Raffaele when looking for those other people.



This "trial" was actually a circus even by third-world Italian standards. Not counting opening and closing arguments, the court was only in session for two days.

One of those two days (the saner of the two) was devoted to spending millions of Euros on laboratory tests proving that Amanda sliced carrots with a knife that everyone can see is completely incompatible with Kercher's wounds.

The other one of those two days was the one I call "clown day at the court".

Here is part of one of my old posts where I described what transpired:
Quote:
There are witnesses that the prosecution might hope would establish guilt if only they could somehow become credible.

There are witnesses that the defense hopes would establish innocence if only someone would pay attention to what they have to say.

And then there is Luciano Aviello.



Luciano Aviello is a fairly unremarkable mobster who is serving a long prison term for some sort of undecipherable mafia activity. His brother was a mobster who ran afoul of rival mobsters and is off on an extended stay with Jimmy Hoffa.

Luciano Aviello claims that his now-dead brother helped to murder the Kercher whore. His claims have no credibility whatsoever. He can't even describe the crime accurately.

Luciano Aviello also says he wants to be a woman, and that he will testify for whatever side agrees to pay for his sex change surgery.

(Personally I think the entire thing is just him being a clown because he has nothing better to do in prison, but whatever.)



Of all the witnesses they could bring in to hear testimony from, the only person that the freaks, sorry I mean Italians, decided to hear from is: Luciano Aviello.

They had a big show where a long train of prison vehicles brought him to the courthouse with lights flashing and sirens blaring, and he strode into court all dressed up in women's clothing, looking quite a bit like Corporal Klinger from an old episode of MASH.

Upon taking the stand, he told the court all about a seance where the ghost of his dead brother had confessed to helping to kill the Kercher whore.

Then the long train of prison vehicles took him back to prison.


That's it. Expensive and pointless tests on a knife that does not match Kercher's wounds, and a talk with a transvestite about seances, are the sum total of this entire retrial.

I expect that the fact that this retrial was a complete farce is not too important however. The higher court ordered the lower court to ignore all the evidence and just find people guilty no matter what. I'm sure they're going to follow their orders.

A small chance, perhaps, that the judges have the ethics to thwart their orders and come up with an excuse to acquit. But more likely we will just have to wait for the European Court of Human Rights to sort everything out.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 11:10 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I read that comment piece earlier today. There are prejudices on all sides whether pro-guilt or pro-innocence. Such prejudices have been dramatically displayed on this thread. Poor ossobuco's thread has been spoiled by hateful comments.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 11:14 am
There's a live stream from the court via Italian news website Corriere Della Sera.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Thu 30 Jan, 2014 11:16 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I remain with my thinking from my first post in this thread - I still don't know.
I didn't trust Mignini because of matters I'd read about him before the murder occurred; that is, he was in the italian news I read prior to Knox even being in Italy. I didn't trust Knox because of the mess re her statements. I've no opinion on Solecito.

I agree with Nick Richardson's take on the matter; he's read more than I have about the whole thing, from both or more sides, and he still doesn't know either.
 

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