Amanda Knox

I'll emphasize this to Oralloy and others, a quote from Raphillon, who is, yes, italian -

@Oralloy: Italians are divided between who believes Amanda is innocent and who believes she is guilty.

I don't mean to use Raphillon via quotes and won't quote him again.

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@Raphillon,

So it is the 6 non-professional Judges who have to wear the sash as a matter of course. Thanks for clearing that up at least.

I do have to take issue with the description of this verdict as being a "First Step." From what I've read, Italy's appeal-success rate is no better than that of the U.S. in general; the woman has been convicted. As I understand it; Italy does allow a complete revisiting of the facts, rather than just how the law was applied to them, but that doesn't make prison life any more fun in the interim. Nor does it mean the conviction is any less likely to stand, in general. If it is being described that way because the Italian system grants appeals more automatically; that is of little consequence as there would be more than enough grounds for appeal here too (not to mention sufficient ground to toss the vast majority of what was reportedly used against her by the prosecution.)

Thanks also for clarifying that the Italian public is rather split on the outcome. That needed reporting (at least for some).

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@OCCOM BILL,

O'Bill, Raphillon has been on here at a2k rarely, and always in a helpful capacity, has helped an a2ker around Rome, and answered questions from me. If you beat up on him I'll have your head..

However, that doesn't seem necessary - he can hold his own.

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@ossobuco,

Relax Osso. I thanked him in two out of three paragraphs and merely sought confirmation of my clarification in the third. Not exactly an invitation to battle.

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@OCCOM BILL,

Ok. Not opposed to battle as long as you appreciate him.
I am expecting to meet him for a good meal and talk some day, and it's my turn to pay because of his past help.

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@ossobuco,

Raphillon's a good explainer without my support. Sorry I even commented.

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@Raphillon,

Raphillon wrote:

@Oralloy: Italians are divided between who believes Amanda is innocent and who believes she is guilty.

That's nice to hear. I really had not gotten that impression up to this point.

Raphillon wrote:

Since I have no access to the process nor I have listen to the interrogations, I declare myself ignorant in the matter, but in my experience if there was a doubt they would have let her free.

There is a lot more than just a doubt. There is not even a single reason to even think she is involved.

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

In this particular case, I don't just out and out believe various claims of the defendent.

What isn't believable?

About the only thing I've seen that wasn't truthful were the statements that the police forced her to make. She surely isn't to blame for what they forced her to do.

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Raphillon wrote:
@Oralloy: Italians are divided between who believes Amanda is innocent and who believes she is guilty.

That's nice to hear. I really had not gotten that impression up to this point.

In addition to reading your post, I now see this article, which is also nice.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hLPPW0RtW3CatbRw7xdubBF_vwRQ

I'm still enraged at this verdict, but I guess I was wrong to direct my rage directly at the Italian people.

I already withdrew my offensive statements and apologized for them some pages back, but for what it's worth, I withdraw them again and apologize again.

---------------------------

In related news, apparently Guede's appeal is starting today (he's the Ivorian who was convicted earlier for the crime).

Among the three, he's the only one who even might have been involved, but I think there is plenty of reasonable doubt for even his conviction.

I just tried to find a link for the Guede appeal and couldn't. I'll look a little deeper though and see what pops up.

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Apparently, many Americans don't share Oralloy's obviously flawed notions about the Italian system of justice:

Quote:

What we're seeing is, of course, little more than ethnocentrism: the belief that because Italy has different legal customs from those we're familiar with, they're immediately discredited from being able to make rational decisions in the courtroom.

Quote:

Do the Knox family and their supporters really believe that their judgment, clouded by the obvious emotion surrounding their relationship with Amanda, is more accurate than that of the judges and lawyers who've worked tirelessly on this case over the past 2 years? Do they not understand that by immediately attempting to discredit this guilty verdict, they are essentially saying "**** you" to the Kercher family and everyone who has worked so hard on this case since day one?

Worth reading:Source

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@Francis,

Francis wrote:

Do they not understand that by immediately attempting to discredit this guilty verdict, they are essentially saying "**** you" to the Kercher family and everyone who has worked so hard on this case since day one?

You must be joking posting this crap. Protesting what they believe is an unjustified guilty verdict against their own loved one is somehow saying **** you to the Kercher family? Are you really that ******* stupid? The Kercher family suffered a horrific tragedy (I've seen not one Knox family member opine otherwise). That doesn't mean the Knox family couldn’t be suffering a tragedy too. I’d wager not one member of the Kercher family is stupid enough to view it that way… though it would be understandable if they did. You have no excuse.

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@OCCOM BILL,

Bill, I know you are far better than I in hurling insults.

But it doesn't change the fact that this whole case is based on Americans thinking that their judiciary system is better than anyone else's.

Ethnocentrism at its heights.

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@Francis,

Francis wrote:

Apparently, many Americans don't share Oralloy's obviously flawed notions about the Italian system of justice:

There is nothing flawed in my saying it is wrong to maliciously prosecute innocent people.

If some Americans support the malicious prosecution of innocent people, those Americans are wrong and are quite probably evil.

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@Francis,

Francis wrote:

But it doesn't change the fact that this whole case is based on Americans thinking that their judiciary system is better than anyone else's.

Balderdash. It is based on Americans saying it is wrong to maliciously prosecute innocent people.

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@oralloy,

Oralloy wrote:

It is based on Americans saying it is wrong to maliciously prosecute innocent people.

Because you are American and you say so?

Yeah, you are the repository of the eternal truth....

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@Francis,

Francis wrote:

Oralloy wrote:
It is based on Americans saying it is wrong to maliciously prosecute innocent people.

Because you are American and you say so?

Yeah, you are the repository of the eternal truth....

I would wager that most humans think it is wrong to maliciously prosecute innocent people.

If you support such atrocities, that reflects poorly on you.

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@oralloy,

You have no lessons to teach me about humanity and sufferings.

Your ways of thinking, as you demonstrated in this case, would lead to enormous sufferings, were you to have any power to interfere.

May I remind you (and Bill) that at no point did I take sides with one or other parties?

I stand my case about the obvious bias shown here on the Italian justice system..

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@Francis,

Francis wrote:

You have no lessons to teach me about humanity and sufferings.

Your ways of thinking, as you demonstrated in this case, would lead to enormous sufferings, were you to have any power to interfere.

May I remind you (and Bill) that at no point did I take sides with one or other parties?

I stand my case about the obvious bias shown here on the Italian justice system..

Nothing biased about opposing the malicious prosecution of innocent people.

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@oralloy,

Hammering something you don't know doesn't make it right or wrong...

However, it's obviously wrong to pretend that you know the truth.

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@OCCOM BILL,

Well, I'm not a professional lawyer, so I don't exactly know the difference between American and Italian system, anyway, speaking just about concepts...

In Italy a prosecution for criminal facts starts with an accusation (in this matter the policy did it directly) then a judge must pronounce a sentence giving his "luogo a procedere" (permission to go ahead), it is not so immediate, because "luogo a procedere" imply the accused can be convicted in jail for a long period... then comes the "primo grado" (first grade) this is a complete process, we are at this point, now. The "primo grado" sentence is fully executive, but any part can appeal the sentence (for instance Kercher family could too, if they thought the sentence was too moderate for Amanda Knox) if an appeal is call then come the "secondo grado", this is a complite review of the process, new evidence can be exposed, as well as new interrogations, the outcome is not granted by any means, the judges and jury are different from "primo grado". Many process have been overthrown completely in "secondo grado", and the punishment can bee different too, (so for example, Amanda could be found again guilty and be assigned 10 years, instead of 26). Again an appeal could be called by any part. In that case there will be a third grade, pronounced by the "cassazione" court. In this third process the cassazione states about the "secondo grado" procedure, if circumstances and evidences have been valued correctly, if everything has been done according to the correct procedure and so on. Cassazione can ratify the sentence (that so became definitive and can not be opposed again) or can send it back to "secondo grado" with some indications (those indications intend to be significant for future interpretation of the law and so are very important)

That's about all, a long post for a very long procedure. It is so to grant that if someone is condamned, it is absolutely certainly guilty, accordind to the principle that "E' meglio assolvere 10 colpevoli che condannare un solo innocente" (it is better to absolve 10 criminals than to condemn a single innocent). Sadly it is not easy practically and so process very often last for many years before a definitive sentence is pronounced...

1 Reply

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