Amanda Knox

@McTag,

McTag wrote:

Good evening, George. Very nice to see you around the place.

Incidentally, there has been a great new TV series here on the history of Scotland (during which I'm learning a lot I did not previously know) and I was pleased to see the considerable Scottish influence in the philosophy which went into the formulation of the Declaration of the thirteen states. John Witherspoon at Princeton and all that.

It's true the influence, directly and indirectly, of Scottish philosophers was a significant factor. Mostly though the colonists were escaping from some unloved aspect (it varied from colony to colony) of the British Empire and seeking local self-government. The philosophy came later in the evolution of the united republic. It was the benevolent influence of the Irish however that gave it a human face and made the damn thing work (at least that's what my father told me).

I wish you and your family a happy and healthy Christmas.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

And who is to say your father was wrong?

Erin go bragh.

Seasonal wishes warmly reciprocated.

0 Replies

@OCCOM BILL,

Quote:

Since no system is perfect, the $64,000 question is; would you rather have more OJ's go free, or have more Innocent people found guilty? Which in your opinion is the lesser evil?

That's a good question. If I believed that cops and the justice system were out only to get someone, and that the possibility of them framing innocent people and manipulating the system simply to achieve that, was a probability in reality, I'd say that would be more troubling.
Of course, (and this is depending on who you are) it also happens the other way around-so many safeguards are built into the system that often, through technicalities, someone who is guilty goes free. Think about what a blow that is to the family of the victim. As well as the cost to society if this person is at risk of reoffending (which most sex offenders are).

There was an interesting movie about this with Deniro and Pacino playing two cops and I won't spoil the outcome in case you want to see it, but the frustration of not being able to nab people who were obviously guilty...resulted in the theme of the movie (that's all I'll say)- and it wasn't vigilantism. It was interesting.

No, I think it's an outrage when obviously guilty people go free and I think it's an outrage when innocent people are imprisoned.

As I said, what's been presented over there is obviously different than what's been presented over here. I'm sure that's why I have a different opinion and don't think she's an innocent sitting in jail. And of course, what's been printed over here hasn't focused on the shortcomings of the Italian police or their manipulative and maneuvering presentation of the evidence. This is the first I've heard of any of that.
If it's proven that what's been presented over here is all lies and she was framed - then so be it- I'll be happy that she's vindicated and can rejoin her family.

I'm glad to hear this wasn't all over the front pages over there. That aspect of it did bother me. I'm glad to hear the press was more evenhanded than I gave them credit for.

2 Replies

@aidan,

Quote:

There was an interesting movie about this with Deniro and Pacino playing two cops and I won't spoil the outcome in case you want to see it, but the frustration of not being able to nab people who were obviously guilty...resulted in the theme of the movie (that's all I'll say)- and it wasn't vigilantism. It was interesting.

Now that I think about it, I guess you could call it vigilantism (with a twist).

0 Replies

Donald Trump calls for boycott of Italy:

http://www.trumpuniversity.com/blog/post/2009/12/free-amanda-knox.cfm

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

The fact is the Knox case hasn't drawn that much attention here - it has never been page one news. Indeed more attention was given to the issuance of arrest warrants for various U.S. CIA agents by the Italian Judicial system. Additionally it was the conjunction of the two issues that got most of the attention.

It was in the headlines a lot on the day of the conviction. Not so much since then however.

0 Replies

I can see this debate already reached a boiling point... I'll give my two cents, anyway.
About the process nothing will be publicized before the third grade of judice, in Italy, after a verdict, one can oppose and after this one can oppose again. The last word is to the cassazione. Only after this, people will know what the judge could in the beginning.
I think that when this will happen we will see that Amanda is guilty behond any reasonable doubt.
I have read many comments about Italian law system. A lot were unfair, some to the point of beeing insulting... Italian system is far from perfect but because it is slow, impossibly slow... In my experience, when a guilty verdict is pronounced you can bet your life the accused is guilty.
Expecially when media get involved.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

This proves one thing above all:

Donald Trump is more stupid than he looks.

1 Reply

Raphillon wrote:

A lot were unfair, some to the point of beeing insulting

Indeed, to say the least..

and wrote:

In my experience, when a guilty verdict is pronounced you can bet your life the accused is guilty.

I tried to say the same, in other words...

1 Reply

@Raphillon,

Thanks for posting, Raphillon.

0 Replies

@ossobuco.
Thanks for emailing me and sorry for beeing late.

@Francis
Hi, it's nice to see you around... I understand there must be quite an heavvy media bombing about that in America... A very sad thing... It is difficoult to make people understand that Italy has never been an anti-American country, and that in Europe we do assume innocence and take process and justice VERY seriosly, just like them, when their media system keep describing us like medioeval witch hunters...

I think Amanda's family must be very powerfull and well connected to polics to rise such a cloud of dust...

2 Replies

@Raphillon,

Hi, Raphillon, long time no see!

Yes, many of the exposure of this case seems to be related to Amanda's family influence.

Also, it seems that Oralloy here have some personal grievances about the Italians.

1 Reply

@McTag,

McTag wrote:

This proves one thing above all:

Donald Trump is more stupid than he looks.

Nah. It shows that he has a sense of justice and ethics.

0 Replies

@Francis,

Francis wrote:

Hi, Raphillon, long time no see!

Yes, many of the exposure of this case seems to be related to Amanda's family influence.

Nah. It has to do with Americans objecting to Italy maliciously prosecuting innocent Americans.

Francis wrote:

Also, it seems that Oralloy here have some personal grievances about the Italians.

Well yes. I've never seen such horrific evil as this. Why should I not object to it?

(Granted, the Nazis were worse, but they were well before my time.)

0 Replies

Oralloy wrote:

Francis wrote:
Also, it seems that Oralloy here have some personal grievances about the Italians.

Well yes. I've never seen such horrific evil as this. Why should I not object to it?

It wouldn't come to my mind to impugn to all Americans the evils of some.

1 Reply

@Francis,

Francis wrote:

Oralloy wrote:
Francis wrote:
Also, it seems that Oralloy here have some personal grievances about the Italians.

Well yes. I've never seen such horrific evil as this. Why should I not object to it?

It wouldn't come to my mind to impugn to all Americans the evils of some.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm trying to keep ossobuco's point in mind that there could well be a lot of Italians who do not support this horror.

It would be a lot easier for me to believe if I actually heard them speak out, but I'm keeping it in mind.

1 Reply

@Raphillon,

I believe Oralloy's expressed attitudes concerning this case are not at all typical of Americans. In the first place the trial has not gotten that much attention in our press and the reports themselves had as much to do with the lurid details of the case reported as with any supposition of bias in the Italian Justice system. The issues of bias mostly originated not in this case, but in the recent issue of Italian warrants for the arrest of US CIA agents over the rendition program.

Nearly everyone here understands that none of us really knows what happened in this case and that those who express certainty that injustice has been done certainly don't know what they are talking about.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

I doubt any sensient italians support the murder.
I assume, for point of ease, that most italians have some belief in their justice system as we do in ours, all of us varying on that within our countries on any given case. They know more how it works there, for good or sometimes not so good, than you do, just as we are apt to here in the US.

The majority of those italians paying attention are likely to have an innocent until proven guilty take on things, as we do. The process of proof is only one step along, in their system.

What percentage of italians who are paying any attention personally guess is true re guilt or non guilt, none of us can surmise, but I'll figure many are nodding along with the findings so far. I'll also guess some fair amount of any americans paying attention take her to be not proven guilty, based on the difference in systems, with a lot of bias against that procedural difference and bias towards her being a young fair american.

We haven't seen the evidence, only what has been reported variously in the press/online, the summaries of that depending on what article you read.

As the thread starter, I'm finding you repetitive, oralloy. We understand what your opinion is.

I am interested in the pros and cons of any nuances people know, such as aidan mentioned re whatever fear Meredith Kercher had - or didn't have - about either Amanda or her acquaintances. Or information about the justice system there (besides repetitive insults).

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Nearly everyone here understands that none of us really knows what happened in this case and that those who express certainty that injustice has been done certainly don't know what they are talking about.

Speak for yourself. It is quite clear that she is innocent and has been maliciously prosecuted, and I know exactly what I am talking about.

0 Replies

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

I doubt any sensient italians support the murder.

The horror I referred to was Italy maliciously putting an innocent American in prison.

ossobuco wrote:

I'll also guess some fair amount of any americans paying attention take her to be not proven guilty, based on the difference in systems, with a lot of bias against that procedural difference and bias towards her being a young fair american.

It would more likely be based on the fact that there is no evidence she had anything to do with the murder, and the fact that the Italians leaked blatant lies about her to the media and ensured the jury was exposed to the lies.

ossobuco wrote:

We haven't seen the evidence, only what has been reported variously in the press/online, the summaries of that depending on what article you read.

This wasn't a secret trial. There were plenty of reports on what evidence was presented.

ossobuco wrote:

As the thread starter, I'm finding you repetitive, oralloy. We understand what your opinion is.

The interesting thing about the truth is it doesn't tend to change from post to post.

But if people don't speak up for the truth, this thread will become a vehicle for injustice.

0 Replies

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know