28
   

Spare the rod . . .

 
 
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 11:05 am
By Jim Dooley
Advertiser Staff Writer

Hawai'i's appellate courts have revisited the thorny question of when parental discipline becomes child abuse, this time overturning the criminal conviction of a stepfather who used a belt to spank his child.


The defendant, Marine Corps Staff Sgt. Jerry Robertson, was convicted of abuse of a household member in 2007.

The boy, 8 years old at the time, was bruised by the punishment but otherwise uninjured.

Family Court Judge Patrick Border sentenced Robertson to 10 days in jail and two years of probation, but delayed imposition of the sentence while the case was appealed.

This week, the state Intermediate Court of Appeals reversed the conviction in an 11-page decision written by Chief Judge Craig Nakamura.

According to case files, Robertson and his wife, also a staff sergeant in the Marine Corps, has previously used noncorporal punishment for misbehavior by the boy.

The spanking took place after the boy came home from school and lied to Robertson about his behavior at school.

"He lied to parents by saying he had 'a good day,' and he did not tell them about the negative note (from his teacher) in his notebook," the court decision said.

"Robertson soon discovered the negative note as well as an accumulation of other recent negative notes in the notebook of which Robertson had not previously been aware," the ruling said.

Because noncorporal punishment " such as taking away such privileges as television, toys, his allowance and sports " had not worked, Robertson told the boy to go to another room to be spanked.

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20091203/NEWS20/912030333?source=rss_localnews

What's your take on this, moms and dads?

  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 28 • Views: 14,320 • Replies: 152

 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 11:13 am
Lots of thoughts on many levels.

One - using a belt to inflict corporal punishment is not a "spanking", it's a "whipping".

Two - sending the child to his room to await punishment and then carrying it out as a planned event means that this isn't an adult who simply reacted to what he saw. He intended to whip his child with a belt and followed through on his intent.

Three - maybe these parents need to be more involved with the other adults (teachers) in this child's life and get feedback directly from the teacher rather than explode over not getting notes. Or... are these notes simply comments written to the student, not intended for the parents?

Four - state statute should specifically describe "abuse of a household member". If this fits within the definition then the punishment of the adult is just. If it doesn't then the court has no business in the case.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 11:30 am
@Merry Andrew,
Quote:
used a belt to spank his child.

Quote:
was bruised by the punishment

In the state where I was a child protection worker, this would have resulted in a court determination of founded child abuse, however would probably not result in jail time or a $ fine. More likely would result in ordering counseling/parenting classes.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 11:33 am
@dyslexia,
i'm not opposed to reasonable corporal punishment, a smack on the ass with an open hand, but any type of implement is assault in my opinion
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 11:40 am
Wow, really?

When I was a kid, I got spanked - with a belt. It isn't a 'whipping' - though I got that too, from my Grandpa. Much worse.

Broke one of my Grandma's picture frames when I ran into the table, she started cryin, my Grandpa whipped out his pocketknife and handed it to me. I looked at him like he was crazy, not knowing what was going on; he told me to go outside and cut off a switch from the willow tree to get spanked with, and if I picked a thin one, I'd ******* regret it. That was a tough moment, but I deserved it.

Spare the rod, spoil the child; I totally believe that's true.

Cycloptichorn
Abel Conklin
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 11:50 am
My father used to drive nails into a stout oak branch so that about three inches of the pointed ends would protrude from the far side and then proceed to beat me mercilessly with that hellish weapon until I lost consciousness from lack of blood or blunt-force trauma, whichever came first.
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 11:50 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

... but I deserved it.


No, you didn't deserve it. No child "deserves" to be spanked, beaten, whipped, or otherwise hit. It's a reflection of the inability of the parent to discipline effectively. Sure, you "learned a lesson you never forgot", but I don't believe that that was the only way such a lesson can be taught.

Quote:
Spare the rod, spoil the child; I totally believe that's true.
.

I'm totally glad you aren't my parent.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:08 pm
@JPB,
Quote:


No, you didn't deserve it. No child "deserves" to be spanked, beaten, whipped, or otherwise hit.


Oh, yes I did. Totally. I did deserve it, and I think the kid in question deserved it too.

Quote:
It's a reflection of the inability of the parent to discipline effectively. Sure, you "learned a lesson you never forgot", but I don't believe that that was the only way such a lesson can be taught.


You don't seem to understand that the point of beating a child isn't to hurt them physically, but to shame them. It is a shaming act. And it was a quite effective form of discipline; far more effective than other forms my parents attempted. I didn't do those actions again, not because I feared pain, but because the extremity of the act really drove home the scope of my transgression in my young mind.

Kids are not always capable of adult levels of logic and reasoning; they are however perfectly capable of understanding the logic of physical punishment.

Quote:

I'm totally glad you aren't my parent.


I've known several kids in my life whose parents didn't believe in spankings, and they were snotty and disobedient little shits, one and all. I'm not a strict disciplinarian or anything like that, but I firmly believe that physical punishment transmits information to a child on a level which words do not, and when done correctly, there is no lasting damage, either physical or psychological.

Cycloptichorn
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:11 pm
@Abel Conklin,
Abel Conklin wrote:

My father used to drive nails into a stout oak branch so that about three inches of the pointed ends would protrude from the far side and then proceed to beat me mercilessly with that hellish weapon until I lost consciousness from lack of blood or blunt-force trauma, whichever came first.
and your point is?
0 Replies
 
Abel Conklin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:13 pm
Not point, but rather pointillism
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:23 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:


You don't seem to understand that the point of beating a child isn't to hurt them physically, but to shame them. It is a shaming act. And it was a quite effective form of discipline; far more effective than other forms my parents attempted. I didn't do those actions again, not because I feared pain, but because the extremity of the act really drove home the scope of my transgression in my young mind.

Kids are not always capable of adult levels of logic and reasoning; they are however perfectly capable of understanding the logic of physical punishment.


Parents model proper behavior to their children. Parents who hit model that it's proper to hit someone younger/weaker than they are. Parents who fail to discipline model that out-of-control behavior is acceptable.

Why, for goodness sake, would you want to shame your child for being a child? They need to learn proper behavior but it doesn't need to be at the cost of physical or emotional "punishment".

Quote:

I've known several kids in my life whose parents didn't believe in spankings, and they were snotty and disobedient little shits, one and all. I'm not a strict disciplinarian or anything like that, but I firmly believe that physical punishment transmits information to a child on a level which words do not, and when done correctly, there is no lasting damage, either physical or psychological.

Cycloptichorn


Interesting. I'm a very strong disciplinarian. My children were removed from restaurants unless they spoke with voices only those at our table could hear. We had "restaurant behavior rules" that were on par with going to church. They were taught to think of others feelings in their words and actions. They weren't allowed to be snotty or disobedient to me or anyone else and they were never hit/spanked/whipped/ or shamed into proper behavior.

It only takes one rule and every society/religion/culture has a variation of it. Treat others (including your children) as you would yourself be treated.
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:23 pm
Are there actually people on this thread who are taking my dear and cherished friend Abel Conklin seriously??? C'mon, guys, pointillism aside, that's pointless.
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:24 pm
Just for the record, this is probably the first time in our acquaintance that I totally disagree with Cyclo.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:32 pm
@Merry Andrew,
any friend of Abel is an enemy of polite society.
Sglass
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:35 pm
@dyslexia,
Hay don't talk about Abel that way. Just because he's a little seedy.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  5  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:44 pm
@JPB,
Yeah.

What I've found in my experience with kids is that the least snotty and disobedient ones were ones who haven't been hit. The ones who go get hit tend to be obedient around the people who hit them, but extra snotty and boundary-testing around people who don't.

I'm not saying that my experience is universal -- the sample's too small. Just a counterpoint.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:46 pm
@JPB,
Quote:


Parents model proper behavior to their children. Parents who hit model that it's proper to hit someone younger/weaker than they are. Parents who fail to discipline model that out-of-control behavior is acceptable.


There is a difference between 'hitting' and 'spanking.' Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is not done in anger or haste, but instead is a deliberate act. It teaches children that there are sometimes severe consequences to their actions. It is not comparable to striking someone out of anger or out-of-control behavior; quite the opposite, in fact.

And it was quite effective on me, in a way that other punishments were not. I was (am?) a stubborn person; what else were they going to do to me? Send me to my room, give me the silent treatment, take my toys away? I didn't give a **** about any of that.

Quote:
Why, for goodness sake, would you want to shame your child for being a child? They need to learn proper behavior but it doesn't need to be at the cost of physical or emotional "punishment".


Because the child is acting in a fashion for which they deserve shame. 'Being a child' isn't an excuse for severe transgressions.

If you don't punish someone physically or emotionally, you aren't punishing them at all.

Quote:
Interesting. I'm a very strong disciplinarian. My children were removed from restaurants unless they spoke with voices only those at our table could hear. We had "restaurant behavior rules" that were on par with going to church. They were taught to think of others feelings in their words and actions. They weren't allowed to be snotty or disobedient to me or anyone else and they were never hit/spanked/whipped/ or shamed into proper behavior.

It only takes one rule and every society/religion/culture has a variation of it. Treat others (including your children) as you would yourself be treated.


I believe that spanking your children is treating others as you yourself would want to be treated. I deserved the physical punishment I got as a child; I earned it through my actions. I am not sorry my parents administered them, in fact I admire them for doing so, for I now understand as an adult how painful it must have been for them to have to do so.

I also think it mirror's one's adult life as well. There are certain actions which I could take as an adult for which I completely expect I would be physically or emotionally punished for doing so. I have been in fights as an adult over actions that other people have taken (and on one regrettable occasion, actions I undertook), and I believe that was perfectly appropriate at the time. I do not understand this pretense that some have that physical confrontation doesn't exist, or even shouldn't...

I have no information about your kids (I'm sure they are perfectly fine) but that hasn't been my experience in life.

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:06 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
There's a difference between discipline and punishment. Both (either) can be equally effective in teaching a child proper behavior - isn't that the goal? Punishment teaches them that the big guy gets to call the shots (sometimes - oftentimes - arbitrarily). Discipline teaches them that they are responsible for their actions and will have consequences (hopefully, natural ones) associated with them.

Quote:
Broke one of my Grandma's picture frames when I ran into the table,


I'm not sure how old you were when this happened but rather than have you cut your own switch and having it used on you, I would have imposed an immediate cease and desist on whatever activity you were doing that resulted in the broken picture frame and put you to work to earn the money to replace it.

Grandma's tears were probably shame enough to know that you'd done something you shouldn't be proud of and making restitution would/should have make you both feel better.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:11 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
No child "deserves" to be spanked, beaten, whipped, or otherwise hit. It's a reflection of the inability of the parent to discipline effectively.

Exactly.

The grandparents should have been able to foresee the consequences of allowing Cyclo to run indoors.
Abel Conklin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:12 pm
Quote:

I'm not sure how old you were when this happened but rather than have you cut your own switch and having it used on you, I would have imposed an immediate cease and desist on whatever activity you were doing that resulted in the broken picture frame and put you to work to earn the money to replace it.


Draconian, to say the least.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

My daughter - Discussion by Seed
acting out or real problem - Question by Bl08791
Tween girls - Discussion by sozobe
Nebraska Safe Haven Law - Discussion by Diest TKO
For Parents - Discussion by shawn1989
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Spare the rod . . .
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 02/17/2019 at 06:44:18