John Allen Muhammed Executed in VA at 9:22 pm

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

I take it that you are positing a rational lunatic here. Perhaps he's a German.

No, I'm not. I thought that was what you were doing.

I also think that German lunatics are just as irrational as American ones.

1 Reply

@old europe,

Perhaps equally irrational, but often better organized.

There is little doubt that swift, inescapable and not obviously unjust punishment does indeed have a deterrent effect on human behavior. I know that from lots of direct observation. Whether the political, social and economic costs of such punishment are sustainable is another question. Moral disputes attendant to these questions are generally not amenable to resolution. Everything appears to depend on usually unstated and often poorly defined and inconsistent fundamental principles. Agreement is rare and certainty generally impossible.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

There is little doubt that swift, inescapable and not obviously unjust punishment does indeed have a deterrent effect on human behavior.

While I wouldn't disagree with this statement, it's based on a number of assumptions that by no means can be taken for granted. I would say that the "effect on human behavior" can only be taken as a valid statement as long as we are talking about average, rationally thinking humans. In that regard, I would question the deterrent effect any kind of punishment has on someone who has obviously left the realm rational thought quite a while ago.

Furthermore, it assumes that the punishment will be swift, inescapable and not obviously unjust. I would argue that none of that is true for the death penalty: as applied, it is not swift (with sometimes decades of distance between the crime and punishment), it is not inescapable (not every murderer is caught, and a prospective killer might even be completely convinced that he, unlike others, will most certainly get away with it), and even in a completely transparent justice system, there will always remain questions concerning specific cases.

1 Reply

@old europe,

No argument there. However, you are a very long way from demonstrating that the, perhaps unintended, side effects of the death penalty in a reasonably transparent and just government are any worse than the lack of one.

0 Replies

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

As I said, since I know the guy was guilty, I feel no remorse over his execution. But, since justice must be even handed, I stand against the death penalty. There are many instances where we "know" the person deserves to die. Then we are all too often informed that the convicted was innocent. Sometimes before the execution; sometimes after they are buried.

I know of not case in recent history where a buried man was later found to be innocent. Not one.

3 Replies

@Merry Andrew,

Merry Andrew wrote:

Quote:
Can you say for sure that his unlamented, rather miserable - and deserved - death won't be a deterrent to some other lunatic who might contemplate similar crimes and fantasies?

Well, of course no one can say so "for sure", George. But if past statistical evidence is any kind of bell-wether, it's pretty evident that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent and never has. In fact, my fear is that some ambitious copy-cat could try to better the Muhammed/Malvo exploit by using the same tactics and saying to him/herself: "Aha! I'll go 'em one better -- I won't get caught!"

Boy I've seen plenty of argument that the stats that show murder spiked during the Death Penalty moratorium were inconclusive... but I've never before seen someone claim they could prove statistically that the death penalty doesn't act as deterrent. I triple dog dare you to try to actually do that.

In other news, while I still feel as strongly as ever that rapists, child molesters and other repeat violent offenders should be killed along with murderers, in considerably larger numbers... recent experience with courts and juries has convinced me that humans can't be trusted with the responsibility of making this decision... so I am forced to retract my support for the death penalty in most cases... until such time the ultimate decision is mine to make.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:

As I said, since I know the guy was guilty, I feel no remorse over his execution. But, since justice must be even handed, I stand against the death penalty. There are many instances where we "know" the person deserves to die. Then we are all too often informed that the convicted was innocent. Sometimes before the execution; sometimes after they are buried.

I know of not case in recent history where a buried man was later found to be innocent. Not one.

Then you haven't payed attention.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:

I wonder what it would be like if you were walking in the bush and a hyena tore out your throat.

An evasion to my point, which doesn't surprise me at all. I presume that if you had a real counter-argument, you would use it. To make my point even clearer, this person cruelly inflicted immense pain, and we know he's guilty. He deserved the punishment he got.

You stupid bastard. I have given counter argument already.

2 Replies

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

You stupid bastard. I have given counter argument already.

Now there's a reasoned, dispassionate argument from an eminently (self proclaimed) humane and sympathetic source !

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:

As I said, since I know the guy was guilty, I feel no remorse over his execution. But, since justice must be even handed, I stand against the death penalty. There are many instances where we "know" the person deserves to die. Then we are all too often informed that the convicted was innocent. Sometimes before the execution; sometimes after they are buried.

I know of not case in recent history where a buried man was later found to be innocent. Not one.

Then you haven't payed attention.

Oh but I have. I would be very interested in learning who this person is. You'll notice in my next post I've joined you in opposition to the death penalty in general, but with different reasoning.

0 Replies

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:

As I said, since I know the guy was guilty, I feel no remorse over his execution. But, since justice must be even handed, I stand against the death penalty. There are many instances where we "know" the person deserves to die. Then we are all too often informed that the convicted was innocent. Sometimes before the execution; sometimes after they are buried.

I know of not case in recent history where a buried man was later found to be innocent. Not one.

It's not in fashion for the state to humor such deliberation post-burial. But within 48 hours of execution they might commute a death sentence: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3541391&page=1&page=1

In fact, according to the ACLU, 102 innocent people have been released from death row over the past 25 years.

So you are right in the sense that the powers-that-be don't weigh in on the guilt or innonce of the already dead, but with respect to the about-to-be-dead they are often quite concerned. And the difference between classifications might be a matter of hours.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

occom bill said

Quote:

I know of not case in recent history where a buried man was later found to be innocent. Not one.

Quote:

In his final hours on death row, Cameron Todd Willingham and his attorneys tried frantically to show the governor of Texas a new scientific report proving his innocence. The evidence was apparently ignored, and Willingham was executed on February 17, 2004.

During his trial, he refused prosecutors' offer to give him life in prison instead of the death penalty. He told them he was innocent, and he wouldn't agree to any deals. As he was strapped down in the execution chamber, just before the lethal injection began, he proclaimed his innocence one last time.

An extraordinary new investigative report in the New Yorker shows that Willingham was telling the truth. He was innocent.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-scheck/innocent-but-executed_b_272327.html

1 Reply

@Gargamel,

Gargamel wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:

As I said, since I know the guy was guilty, I feel no remorse over his execution. But, since justice must be even handed, I stand against the death penalty. There are many instances where we "know" the person deserves to die. Then we are all too often informed that the convicted was innocent. Sometimes before the execution; sometimes after they are buried.

I know of not case in recent history where a buried man was later found to be innocent. Not one.

It's not in fashion for the state to humor such deliberation post-burial. But within 48 hours of execution they might commute a death sentence: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3541391&page=1&page=1

In fact, according to the ACLU, 102 innocent people have been released from death row over the past 25 years.

So you are right in the sense that the powers-that-be don't weigh in on the guilt or innonce of the already dead, but with respect to the about-to-be-dead they are often quite concerned. And the difference between classifications might be a matter of hours.

This type of thing can just as easily be used to demonstrate the checks and balances system of appeals actually work. I've still yet to read PROOF of an innocent man being executed by the state in recent history.

However, my recent, unexpected, about face on the subject has everything to do with the sheer volume of cases that need overturning, because the mistake does seem inevitable eventually. I've recently been in direct contact with the Innocence Project myself, precisely because I've seen the opening round of "Justice" drop the ball badly on several different issues... and can only imagine how much worse it probably is for minorities in Texas.

2 Replies

@OCCOM BILL,

Watch out Bill, you're becoming a mensch.

and good for you.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Somebody from the New Yorker thinks so and boldly proclaims it so... wouldn't convince me over the original fact-finder(s) decision, let alone a case that's already went through the rigmarole of the appellate process.

0 Replies

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Moreover we have ample evidence that long periods of imprisionment don't reform people either.

go for the cheaper option - life imprisonment. Life expectancy is reduced in any case - it's a good deal all round.

0 Replies

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

I've still yet to read PROOF of an innocent man being executed by the state in recent history.

We agree about the heart of the matter, not that that's important. But just for fun, I'm unclear as to the substantive difference between believing that wrongful execution will happen and already has happened. Shouldn't the evidence leading you to one conclusion bring you to the other as well? There's ample PROOF (take Hawkeye's example) of men being executed in spite of there being reasonable doubt. Isn't that, doubt, the measure of innocence in our system?

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Wasn't talking to you, didn't ask your opinion.

1 Reply

Signs Grow of Innocent People Being Executed, Judge Says
By ADAM LIPTAK
A federal judge in Boston said yesterday that there was mounting evidence innocent people were being executed. But he declined to rule the death penalty unconstitutional.

"In the past decade, substantial evidence has emerged to demonstrate that innocent individuals are sentenced to death, and undoubtedly executed, much more often than previously understood," the judge, Mark L. Wolf of Federal District Court in Boston, wrote in a decision allowing a capital case to proceed to trial.

It only took a moment to find this story. There are any number to be found if one wants to know.

2 Replies

@edgarblythe,

well, I concur with mistakes made as a reason to object to capital punishment, but it's not my reason. I object to capital punishment because I feel it is barbaric and socially primitive with no value to society when we have life imprisonment as an alternative.

1 Reply

John Allen Muhammed Executed in VA at 9:22 pm

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know