Everytime I think I have gotten the hang of the parenting thing, something else comes up

I agree - sounds terrible. Maybe that is why my older daughter is now friends with the boys more than the girls.

The only thing I can suggest in the future is say from the beginning when they come over if any of (whatever your limit is) happens you will go home immediately end of story.

We had to do this with one of my daughter's classmates that was a little terror. She was doing all sorts of crap we do not allow, but according to her is ok with her parents. My words - we do not do this here - if you do you will go home. She knew I meant business and from there we didn't have an issue with her.

I would have kicked the crap outta them.

Used to be that kids had to respect all adults. <shakes fist>

Now it seems that every kid wants to pull the "you aren't my daddy" routine while the daddy isn't doing much daddy either. The end result seems to be that most kids just aren't disciplined much at all.

There was a story in the news recently about a man in a supermarket that told a mother that if she didn't shut up the screaming kid he would. Several aisles later he smacked the kid and got arrested. Now I don't condone, but I understand.

I don't have kids, so I can just avoid them. I had friends who brought kids to my house and when they insisted on kicking Harry (to try to make him run so they could chase him) and the parents didn't do much about it I just decided not to hang out with them anymore. But when the kids are your kid's friends it only makes it more complicated. Would you just tell sozlet she can't hang out with a friend because the friend is a brat? That's the kind of complicated question that makes me doubt wanting to become a parent.

You're right, and you certainly can discipline any kid to some extent, it just seems like it is utterly useless more often than not, and that you often can't discipline enough to change the behavior.



They drew blood (got a gash on the back of my head) so I was ready to back up the physical threat. I threw the basketball at them as hard as I could (it hit the fence separating us) and they got the point. But what if they didn't? Is it ok to physically touch a stranger's kids if they are physically assaulting you?

I've done that once, in Brazil. A kid came up to me and demanded money, which I didn't have. Then he started following me and kicking my shins with a little mischievous grin. I told him if he kept it up I'd kick him back. He kicked me as hard as he could and I did. I didn't try to hurt him, so I swept his feet out more than actually kicking him but I got the point across.

Afterward I wondered if it was morally correct to do that, or if I should have just ran away from the kid. I've never quite answered that question in my head, of at what point discipline should stop. Sometimes I feel that a kid needs to learn that their physical violence might result in getting physically hurt, and other times I feel that I should be more understanding about their immaturity and let them get away with violence instead.

Would love to see some input from other parents here on this issue. What do you do when it comes down to running-away from a violent kid or physically reacting?

I would have regretted it, but I was more than willing to back up my actual threat (which was to go up there and hit them, not actually beat them up) at the time.

I really tried all the other options. I looked for an adult that might have been in charge, but only found other adults ready to kick their asses too (they hit an old lady so many times she left the bench she was on).

I told them nicely and then not nicely that they needed to stop. They would just say "what?" as if they didn't hear and giggle.

I'm pretty patient with kids, but when they drew blood I was willing to physically touch them. I would probably not have hurt them, but at the very least I'd have grabbed them and made very clear that there was that possibility.

I might regret even that, but what would you do? Just leave?

They were actually school kids, there's a nearby school that sends the kids to this park (schools here don't have multi-million dollar gyms etc), but with no teacher nearby or at least none willing to identify themselves as being responsible.

I looked for the teachers and asked the adults nearby before I just chucked the ball at the fence and scared them off. I'm fine with the basketball response, but if that didn't work I'd really have faced a dilemma. It would be either stay and continue to get pelted by pretty big rocks, leave and ignore them, or take a physical stand.

I think I'd try my best for something in between, like going up there to the playground (it was above the court) and seeing if the lack of a barrier between us stopped them, but what do you do when not even that works (like the case of the kid kicking me in the shins repeatedly)?

Is it ok to use physical force against a strange kid at any point? I really don't know what to think of that sometimes. I'm pretty sure the law wouldn't be on my side if it came to it.

Things are definitely different from when I was a kid. I'd have gotten clouted behind the ear, and my friends chased off by my Ma. Happened plenty of times.

Any kid who talked back to my Mom regretted it - real quick. She's not mean, but she wouldn't hesitate to lay down the law, verbally or physically. Once in high school a friend of mine smarted off to her and she smacked him in face real good. He was pretty shocked - I don't think anyone had ever touched him before in his life. She proceeded to ask him if he wanted to Tango, and he intelligently declined.

Cycloptichorn

It would be hard to resist the physical impulse. I think in that scenario, if I was willing to stop playing basketball, I might grab them and take them to the school and explain what they were doing at the park.

Little shits.

I have kids and I can fully understand where you are coming from. Just remember parents who actually parent their children will agree with you (and probably can't stand these "undisciplined children" even more than non-parents).

However, they are still children so you cannot hit them. I would be all for reporting them to the police though if they assault you. Doesn't matter if their children or not, they still assaulted you.

My parents driving in their car, was hit by a rock that smashed the back windshield (fortunately no one was in the back seat). He pulled over and saw some kids running. My dad (who even though this was 20 years ago) was not the most physically fit, managed to catch one. He held onto him until the police came. The police were not surprised as this "child" had been in trouble before.

When SonofEva was younger, I often reacted physically. PC or not PC, boys respect physical domination. It is totally different with girls. You have to learn how to threaten them.

I think you have the right to use "reasonable" force to protect yourself from any attack, be it a kid, a dog, an adult, whatever.

Slapping someone else's kid in the grocery store wasn't reasonable and probably didn't shut the kid up. The arrest was the proper result on the adult, imo.

As far as I'm concerned you can do whatever is needed to stop the assault (or even danger of further assault) from anyone's child. Once the attack is over then I'd want to talk to the parents/teachers/whoever is in charge of the kids if they're around but you do not need to give over your right to be in a public place to a bunch of hoodlums -- of any age.

I agree, and he could have easily left the store. But after sitting in a plane for 4 hours with a kid screaming and kicking my seat I understand the desire to slap the kid (or the parent).

But yeah, that's an easy and clear wrong to me. Less so is the line where the behavior is not just irritating and really needs to stop.



Ok, but what about if in sozobe's scenario they didn't stop digging, when she came out, and even didn't stop when she started calling parents? She's not being threatened but her property is, would it be acceptable to physically restrain the kids? And if so, how far (e.g. if grabbing them and pulling away resulted in a physical confrontation)?

I think so, but wonder if American society still does sometimes. The discipline line seems to be moving and I'd be worried about legal problems if it came to that.

(sozobe, sorry if the whole "is physical force justified against kids" discussion isn't welcome here, I'd considered starting a new thread on what the discipline line should be before continuing it).

After spending an hour at the laundomat, I understand why some species eat their young.

No, this is interesting and closely allied with the topic, so I have no problem with it.

I'd generally be much more comfortable with physical restraint than with striking a kid. I don't strike my own kid, why would I strike anyone else's? If anyone wants the latest round of research showing that spanking not only doesn't work but causes problems, I'm happy to get it...

I'd restrain a kid for safety reasons as JPB outlined.

In my own situation, if things had escalated as you say, I would've eventually gotten to restraint probably. In reality, I don't think I would've gotten there... too many viable steps before that point.

I DID do something physical though... after Kay ran out, she was on our tree swing, and I went over to her (calmly, no particular expression) and grabbed the rope above her so she was dangling helplessly. She got big-eyed and listened carefully to what I had to say.

Meanwhile... guess who's over as I type! Kay. I did really want to give them some one-on-one time -- the original goal of the fiasco last week -- and Esse was absent today so no chance of her insinuating herself (thank goodness). Kay very sweetly apologized to me, and said something like "sometimes when I'm around Esse I get [makes hyper boinging motions]." Sozlet piped up with "you know how I get Grandma Syndrome? Kay gets Esse Syndrome." (Grandma Syndrome = after several days of my mom indulging her every whim and giggling at her every transgression, sozlet gets bratty.)

They seem to be getting along well. (The playdate isn't over yet though so who knows... knock on wood.) Thank goodness Esse was out today, that's some good timing I think. (In terms of re-connecting at school, not just the playdate now.)

How old were they?

Did they know they drew blood? That might be my starting point if they were pretty young -- "Hey, you made me bleed!" <pause to let that sink in, look at blood in a concerned way, dab at it to see if there is more, etc.> Then, "This is serious. Stop... NOW." (Accompanied by physically going forward a bit, intense eyes, etc. The mom voice/ look.)

If they were young, there's a chance they really didn't get how damaging they were being. Impulsivity/ not thinking things through/ not realizing likely consequences.

If they continued, I'd probably walk towards the school with the intention of speaking to someone about what was going on. May have actually done it or not depending on how they responded.

Well, this American thinks it would be reasonable to physically remove a child from whatever portion of my property they were destroying with reasonable restraint. Again, you aren't going to cold-cock a kid (I know you aren't suggesting you would), but physically lifting a kid off of the ground and removing them from the action is acceptable, imo, if more than one verbal attempt to get them to stop wasn't successful. Actually, depending on what they were destroying (something more structural, say), I wouldn't wait for the second request to be ignored. And I'd definitely be talking to the parents and possibly looking for restitution. Not for flowers, but if it was spray paint on the side of the house or something of that nature I'd be doing whatever it took to stop it immediately.

I like the use of "Grandma Syndrome". It's easily understood and can be transferred to other situations the way Sozlet did with Kay. Nice!

Just saw this one:



Well, being a parent is complicated for sure, but I think you'd be good at it.

As with any of these things there is a lot of prep work that goes into it -- lots that's happened from when she was tiny that influences what happens now. So for example when she was a toddler and I had complete control over who she saw or didn't see, I would shun the brats. When she was in preschool, there was a lot of examination of behavior -- appropriate, inappropriate, why or why not, what's a better way to go about it, etc.

Which is to lead up to, at this point, (we'll see what happens when she reaches her teens), she's very good about figuring this stuff out herself and won't hang out with a brat because SHE doesn't want to hang out with a brat. I haven't felt the need to step in.

When there are borderline situations, she'll give people chances... but if they do something TOO bratty or if they aren't able to adjust (act bratty, then recover and act normally/ nicely), she'll move on from that person. (That's happened before.)

she sounds cute - love that grandmom comment (and perceptive for such a young age).

I agree - you can give guidance/suggestions as they get older - but it is difficult to say - no you can't hang out with bratz - they need to learn it on their own.

There have been situations where we have dealt with bratz (and not just the dolls- ugh) , but the kidz. It works best when your kid tells you that so and so did this or that - then you can point out that it is best not to play with some one when they act that way. Sometimes peer pressure can be a good thing - I've seen it where a child ends up acting nicer because no one wants to play with them.

Actually that is something I we could do a whole topic on, I've been debating this with a good friend, whose intellect I respect, for a long time, and have seen my own thinking begin to change from a spanking is always bad position to a spanking is a very last resort position. Right now my own position is that I think the overwhelming majority of kids don't need spanking, but that some do. It's a subject I'm actually very interested in though and feel very strongly about.

I grew up with a lot of corporal punishment from all the adults who took care of us, it wasn't particularly abusive (e.g. my parents and most of the adults taking care of the kids never believed in disciplining in anger) but it was taking the whole "spare the rod and spoil the child" thing a bit far we had a demerit system and if you got 6 in a week you'd get 6 "swats" with a paddle. I realized how much resentment it built up in me when I eventually punched my dad for slapping my brother. It was years after I'd left the cult, but I was back with my folks, and he slapped my brother (who was admittedly being a bit of a punk). I heard and ran down to the kitchen and told him that if he did it again I'd punch him. He said "oh yeah" and did, so I punched him. It wasn't a hard slap or anything and probably didn't even hurt my brother, but I just hated to see kids hit all my life and it brought an immediate reaction out in me.

It was an inflection point for my family that changed all of our lives, I'll never forget my young sister's mouth agape in shock at what she saw and how bad I felt about it. My brother will never forget that I stood up for him, and my parents actually decided to stop corporal punishment as a result. Initially my dad told me to leave the house (I was back with them in Brazil after being homeless in the US) but my mom said that she wasn't going to let me get put on the streets again and that if I had to go she would go too. They spent two days thinking and praying about it and decided as a result to change their discipline.

But even after all that, I have my doubts. My friend who I've been debating corporal punishment with is one of the more emotionally intelligent folk I know (he's an a2k member on rare occasions, so I may be able to entice him to debate) who had a step-daughter that was severely problematic. He tried every reasonable discipline you can think of, but the problems were such that it stumped all the psychologist and psychiatrists he tried to get help from (both parents have a degree in psychology as well, and this individual was the first person whose behavior I've ever been completely stumped by myself). He ultimately concluded that corporal punishment was the missing element, even though it was years too late for that and he didn't implement it.

I tend to agree, I've seen some kids that never reacted positively to all the other options. I used to believe that there's always another way, and still think it's the case most of the time, but now I am not sure. So while I'm always going to argue for the other options and think that in 99.99% of cases and 99% of individuals it's more harm than a help I'm just not sure if I can rule out corporal punishment completely anymore. I'm open to the possibility that some people just won't respond to authority unless they have to. Other animals use small physical cues to establish authority (e.g. "pecking order") and while I think we have the brains to rise above that I'm not convinced that all of us do. I think that some people (e.g. psychopaths) may only respond to a certain level of discomfort that non-corporal punishment may just not be able to provide.

That's another subject I've long wanted to bring up here, and research on my own further. I'd love to see the research you are talking about and hear the thoughts on the matter from others here.