Welcome To United States Of Theocracy Part One

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

How long until you start piling on Freeduck? How long should it take to finish something in Washington?

I give him at least two years. It took more than 8 to make the mess. That's not to say I can't now disagree with him on things, as I have on many a thread about auto company bailouts, some DOJ decisions, and even health care. But there's a big difference between disagreeing with what he's doing and calling him an abject failure because he hasn't been able to completely change the course of the country in 9 months.

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@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

The companies that failed, should have been allowed to go under.

Well then, like I said, I'm glad he's not measuring up to your expectations.

He has accomplished two huge things so far that I've listed. You can tell me they didn't happen, or that they should have happened differently, but you'd be wrong.

Monday morning quarterbacks...

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@FreeDuck,

FreeDuck wrote:

Right. But you said he should have done "something" but implied he hasn't done anything. So I gave the example of ebrown stating that he ended American torture, which wasn't good enough for you because he didn't also end rendition (for which I know the definition).

I think that's a very legitimate criticism. When he comes out and says he will end torture and that it runs against our values, but continues to outsource it and allow torture in our name there isn't much at all that has changed.

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Robert is correct that it's not the Prez as much as the democratic party in general... but Obama is head of the democratic party.

That's not what I'm saying either. For example, how about just painting a picture of all the massive change you think should be accomplished in your ideal scenario.

I think BiPB was referring to my post, not yours.

And his post was a lot funnier when it said that Obama is the head of the Republican Party.

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@kickycan,

Not saber-rattling is not the same thing as 'accomplishing something'.

I asked you, what has he accomplished with our enemies. I'll give you that his approach has been different, but to what ends?

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:
Right. But you said he should have done "something" but implied he hasn't done anything. So I gave the example of ebrown stating that he ended American torture, which wasn't good enough for you because he didn't also end rendition (for which I know the definition).

I think that's a very legitimate criticism. When he comes out and says he will end torture and that it runs against our values, but continues to outsource it and allow torture in our name there isn't much at all that has changed.

It is a legitimate criticism of Obama, but ending torture by US personnel -- both CIA and military, is still "something".

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@FreeDuck,

That would depend on if we did any American-side torturing. I was always under the impression that we outsourced most-all of it anyway.

But yes, I suppose it's something, with a large *

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@FreeDuck,

It is...but the outsourcing, as far as I can figure, is to provide extreme torture, beyond what even Cheney and Rumsfeld were prepared to feel directly responsible for, so they arranged for the US's most charming allies to do it for them.

That the rendidtion is till going on (I naively hadn't realised it WAS heretofore) is a big, foul, bloody elephant in the room.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

Not saber-rattling is not the same thing as 'accomplishing something'.

I asked you, what has he accomplished with our enemies. I'll give you that his approach has been different, but to what ends?

I think not sabre rattling IS a MAJOR something.

What it has accomplished with your enemies is that your non-enemies are more likely to remain so, and I strongly suspect that less paranoid and insulting ranting makes your enemies far more prepared to negotiate.

1 Reply

@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

I think not sabre rattling IS a MAJOR something.

The parallel to this in my world would be like writing on my resume:

-Successfully refrained from upsetting my peers, employees and management to the point where they would report me to HR.

Not something I would write on my resume, and not something I think Obama deserves any credit for. Just because the last guy was a jack-ass...well you get the idea.

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@maporsche,

I get the feeling you like your legislators and want to bitch about government but dont want to knock your legislators so the president, who dosent do legislation, is your favorite target instead of attacking the senate and house who big business has in their pocket. Very lame!

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@Robert Gentel,

Here are some things that Obama promised that I would like to see Obama have taken some action on; things that I think are significant changes, and things that I believe should have been able to be accomplished by now. I referenced/quoted Politifact.

-Oppose agreements like CAFTA (the Central American Free Trade Agreement) unless it has environmental and labor protections
- Require economic justification for tax cuts
- Lift the payroll tax cap on earnings above $250,000
- Allow imported prescription drugs
- Allow Medicare to negotiate for cheaper drug prices
- Increase the Veterans Administration budget to recruit and retain more mental health professionals
- Fully fund the Veterans Administration
- Fully and properly equip troops
- Revise the Patriot Act to increase oversight on government surveillance
- End warrantless wiretaps
- Offer prizes for advances in consumer technology
- Reduce earmarks to 1994 levels
- Invest $150 billion to encourage "green" business sector (over 10 years)
- Require more disclosure and a waiting period for earmarks
- Tougher rules against revolving door for lobbyists and former officials

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@rabel22,

You'd be wrong. I dislike all of our government.

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@maporsche,

Sabre-rattlling in US presidents hasn't just been the prerogative of the previous jackass.

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@Robert Gentel,

I'm not blaming Obama except to the extent that the way he's handling things is giving the PERCEPTION with the general public that he's a toothless lion and that's not how he campaigned. If Joe public voted for him because he raised their expectations that there were going to be big changes and he gave the impression that they were going to be quick...which he did... and then nothing happens quickly.... then it will be disastrous in 2010 for both the dems and the country. Joe Public is NOT patient, the republs know it and they are WAY better at exploiting the public than the dems as a general rule. That's all I'm saying.

It IS possible to make huge sweeping changes on a dime. Bush did it. they were all fucked up but nonetheless he's the proof it can be done.

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@Bi-Polar Bear,

Quote:

It IS possible to make huge sweeping changes on a dime. Bush did it. they were all fucked up but nonetheless he's the proof it can be done.

Any jackass can kick down a barn.

Obama is not going to perform miracles overnight and he still has to work with moderate Dem.s and stubborn Republicans who have no interest in allowing him to be successful. This is a time will tell situation.

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@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

It is...but the outsourcing, as far as I can figure, is to provide extreme torture, beyond what even Cheney and Rumsfeld were prepared to feel directly responsible for, so they arranged for the US's most charming allies to do it for them.

That the rendidtion is till going on (I naively hadn't realised it WAS heretofore) is a big, foul, bloody elephant in the room.

Indeed. I'm not at all saying it's ok to ship people to other countries to be tortured even beyond what we allow. I'm only saying it might be a bit unrealistic to expect Obama to undo the torture policies of not one but two presidents in the space of 9 months.

It's something to me that he undid the Bush policies. My hope is that he can be pressured to roll back rendition too. I don't think he can do it in his first year, though. He's facing enough blowback from the CIA as it is.

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@Bi-Polar Bear,

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

It IS possible to make huge sweeping changes on a dime. Bush did it. they were all fucked up but nonetheless he's the proof it can be done.

Destruction is always faster than construction.

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@FreeDuck,

... and a lot more fun!

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@Francis,

Francis wrote:

We know that, guys! Do you really think we are dumb, no?

The world is still happier with Obama than with Bush..

Do you speak for the world?

Happily the world doesn't have a vote here.

1 Reply

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