44
   

What is one mistake your parents made that you struggle to forgive?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 09:26 pm
@Butrflynet,
Quote:
I'll just say that for me, it isn't really "forgiveness" but more a final recognition of things for what they were, looking at them, and then giving myself permission to let go of the pain and no longer allow it to harm me or allow me to harm me by continuing to hold on to it. It has nothing at all to do with anyone else.


tis pretty much what I said....and that IS forgiveness.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 09:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
Sigh
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 09:32 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
These things make me ashamed of my profession, and I worry like hell about doing the same to people, because of unexamined and stupid beliefs I hold.


You should take heart when you compare it to those outside of it. It's a tough gig and won't ever become an exact science but psychology has a lot more good to its credit than bad.

Quote:
Such lack of respect for how people really feel about their experiences has a similar dynamic to the original abuse, I believe......and it is a well known danger that systems that are there to deal with abuse will develop the same dynamics as what they are trying to help with.


I hear ya. The white knights who end up doing more harm through inordinate zeal. You have to read this funny take someone wrote on one such guy I ran into. He was a one-man crusade trying to get the spotlight as a white knight and it took being ambushed by his daughter about it on the Dr. Phil show about it to make him finally stop.

Quote:
re the religious aspects.....I have also worked with kids whose parents were firmly attached to churches, where the pastor insisted that the abuser continue to attend the same church, because the mother and children had to practise "christian forgiveness." Some of these pastors tried to insist the mothers allow the perpetrator back into the home, since it was sinful not to forgive, and the marriage vow was more important than anything else.


I'm pretty familiar with that line, victims in the cult were told to give their burden to God and forgive their abusers. The appeal to forgiveness also often has the ugly side of motivation to cover up the abuse itself. The leader even took it as far as saying that women about to be raped should consider "giving it freely" to get "credit" for their generosity from God.

The Christian forgiveness angle is often pretty pernicious and even in mainstream churches (e.g. Catholic church) it is often motivated by wanting to cover it up. As many others here have already alluded to, forgiveness is a pretty complex concept in itself.
Butrflynet
 
  4  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 09:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
No, it is a bit different from what you were saying, I think. The way you expressed it, It sounds as if your survivor group is pushing the process upon others because they view it as the only path to "healing" as defined by the group. Sometimes that pushing causes just as many scars as the original pain, especially when done by inept, well-meaning strangers who attempt to rush people through the process when they aren't ready for it. Rather than push a process, teach and let people absorb what they need from the teaching at their own pace.

You also appear to be putting emphasis on the forgiveness of the abuser. For me personally, my forgiveness has nothing to do with anyone else, or what they did or didn't do. It is about me and how I chose to react, and then forgiving myself for making the choice that allowed it to do more harm to me. It is a reclaiming of self.
solipsister
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 09:53 pm
@Diest TKO,
casual kismet conception
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 09:56 pm
@Butrflynet,
I'll go with this.:

Quote:
It is a reclaiming of self.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:16 pm
@Butrflynet,
And yet you could look back and see where I said that forgiveness is a letting go, and that we do it for us not for them.

It is a reclaiming of you, I would say a declaration of the independence of you. The words are not that important, living with a heart of forgiveness is. A lot of the control of those who harmed us runs under consciousness, outside of our awareness. When we have adopted forgiveness most of that stops, it no longer controls how we think and what we do.

I think that this is an area where the language is not powerful enough to work effectively. Those who have healed and have forgiven are going to have a different definition of the word then those who have not. We really should have several words instead of the one. Many of us in this thread have alluded to this problem.
0 Replies
 
Pemerson
 
  8  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:49 pm
My father, I think, although I'm not sure what he did. He was a handsome man, looking what he was, lots of Cherokee Indian. We all - sister, two brothers - adored him, this very loving gentle man. His wife, very Irish fair with lt. red hair & blue eyes, the two of them running a farm in Mississippi. But I'm the only kid with the dark hair & eyes, fair, fair skin, brooding like dad, liking my solitude.

Our mother died of cancer at age 36, our dear loving dad placed us in what then was called an orphanage, in Texas. Only four, I adapted and lived that life to the fullest, with 179 brothers & sisters, on 280 acres. I will forever long for such a place again, that way of living. Communal, I guess. We had our chores, a tone of tough love, and played games all day - outdoors most of the time. We fought, scratched, pulled hair, and fussed constantly, all us little girls. The boys, I always thought, really were made of puppy dog tails. We had wars, boys against girls. A fun place, but the corporeal punishment at times got ridiculous. We had the best Irish cook in the world, she cooked everything just perfect for 160 kids and all the adults who were either house parents, maintenance people, office workers. The place was owned and run by the Church of Christ, with each kid sponsored by an entire church.

My sister, god was she the bossy type, the best and smartest at any & everything, including sports and school grades. Me, I made poor grades, was a dreamer and loved animals, had great form in sports but couldn't seem to compete. My red-headed brother was a "good" boy & made good grades, the older brother always got into trouble.

So, what have I to forgive? We never saw our family again, and nobody ever talked abour our beautiful mother. I always thought she was tall, like my sister. Dad married again but we remained at the Home, who knew any different? I went to live with the two when I was 15 so was able to live out there "in the world" for 2 1/2 years. I became rather boy crazy (they say you develop a "love addiction" when the caregiver you inherit is stingy with the love).

So, I have a sort of love-hate for my childhood and for my father. At 18, I became pregnant and he drove me to an unwed mothers' home - gad, back in the orphanage again. I had the daughter I gave birth to adopted, that is what you did in the 1950's. She is a lovely girl, very successful artist, has a great husband and a young son who is the spitting image of his biological father, blond and blue-eyed (he is Italian and she has my same coloring).

I forgive him because I love him - he lived to be 96. But, I removed his picture from my dresser when I became older than that framed handsome guy. I've had a great life, lots of adventure because I was just open to anything and loved people. But, gee, all those relatives that began with a Scotts-Irish guy who came here in the 1800's and married this Cherokee Indian girl - they had seven boys.

I've also forgiven my mother for dying.

Thank you for this thread, I'm enjoying it much. I've come to grips with my crazy, strange life, though there's some that are stranger, here. I love you all.
Robert Gentel
 
  5  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I am not even close to the definition of a troll.


That is a "debatable subject". See:



ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:10 pm
@Pemerson,
Great post, Pemerson. It sort of settles my shoulders..
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:12 pm
@ossobuco,
I thought it was a terrific post, too, Pemerson. A little like watching a movie of your life! Smile
0 Replies
 
Below viewing threshold (view)
Robert Gentel
 
  6  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
I agree, it's better to ignore the trolling (which is exactly what you are doing with this faux concern for thread disruption) than disrupt the thread. I will take my own advice and try not to feed the troll.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:38 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Reading the lyrics got to me yesterday, but for whatever reason, I couldn't get the video going. Today I can, and I think, Yes! just like the italian singer songwriters. (Or maybe not, subject matter may vary..) Tnx.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 12:21 am
I'm very moved by so many of the stories that people have shared here. I thought I'd follow up on some of the ideas I've read regarding the idea of forgiveness itself.

When I brought this question here, I answer it one way. Others answer it another way. We each have certain assumptions we make as we process things.

The idea of "having to forgive" someone came up. I don't know that the question implies that (though it does not exclude it either). I've never felt personally, that people were entitled to forgiveness; that the had to be forgiven. I certainly don't think that being someone's parent or child means entitlement to forgiveness.

The funny thing for me about this discussion is that the word "forgive" takes a backseat to the idea of "struggle." I think that in my case, and the resent i feel for this part of my childhood, it is harder to resolve because I love my parents so much. I struggle because while still hurt from that experience, I am still that child trying to protect my parents. Then it was from what I thought was financial ruin (which they probably didn't think I understood at the age or that I was unaware of their money issues), and now it's that I know how devastated they would feel to be confronted by it because I know they love me so much and it would probably hurt a lot to think about some way in which they had hurt me. It is the struggle that defines my experiences then and now. I struggle because of the burden I put on myself.

With my mother, there are more specific things I struggle with, but it would deserve it's own thread and it would be about how to love the mentally ill (not a snide joke, but a statement about her actual mental health).

T
K
O
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 12:28 am
@Pemerson,
Quote:
My father, I think, although I'm not sure what he did. He was a handsome man, looking what he was, lots of Cherokee Indian. We all - sister, two brothers - adored him, this very loving gentle man. His wife, very Irish fair with lt. red hair & blue eyes, the two of them running a farm in Mississippi. But I'm the only kid with the dark hair & eyes, fair, fair skin, brooding like dad, liking my solitude.

Our mother died of cancer at age 36, our dear loving dad placed us in what then was called an orphanage, in Texas. Only four, I adapted and lived that life to the fullest, with 179 brothers & sisters, on 280 acres. I will forever long for such a place again, that way of living. Communal, I guess. We had our chores, a tone of tough love, and played games all day - outdoors most of the time. We fought, scratched, pulled hair, and fussed constantly, all us little girls. The boys, I always thought, really were made of puppy dog tails. We had wars, boys against girls. A fun place, but the corporeal punishment at times got ridiculous. We had the best Irish cook in the world, she cooked everything just perfect for 160 kids and all the adults who were either house parents, maintenance people, office workers. The place was owned and run by the Church of Christ, with each kid sponsored by an entire church.

Pemerson - was the orphanage you were in in Corsicana, Texas? The reason I ask is that my mother was in an orphanage there from 1940-1949, and she describes it very similarly and her experience of it in exactly the same way you do - it was a wonderful place. She just went to a reunion there (as she has done throughout the years- sort of like how people go to highschool reunions). It was exactly sixty years ago this year that she left - at the age of 17.
My mother, in the way she approached the circumstances of HER life is who taught me all about forgiveness - but that's her story - anyway - if you feel like it - pm me with the name of the orphanage. It sounds like you and she may have been in the same circumstances at the same time - if not the same orphanage.
I'm glad you've had a wonderful life from such a hard beginning - so has she.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 12:33 am
@Diest TKO,
The struggle of our discontent with our childhoods gets to be exhausting, and gets to feel pointless usually. At some point you are likely to decide "**** it" and take the alternate tack of embracing who you are, without concern for how you got to be you. That will put you at the doorstep of forgiveness, deciding that you love yourself enough to stop carrying your grievances around any longer.
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 12:48 am
@hawkeye10,
This isn't my struggle to embrace who I am or whether or not love myself.

I'm not sure how else to respond?

T
K
O
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 01:48 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Thay reason that the offense was so unconscionably, flagrantly egregious
that forgiveness is not merited. I understand that and accept it; no objection.
Not everyone sees it that way.

Quote:
My take is that forgiveness is not about the person being forgiven,
it is about the person who is forgiving.
Forgiver and forgiven r BOTH parties to the process,
tho the pardoned offender is not necessarily aware of it; he might be.

Quote:

You forgive because you refuse to carry the offense around with you anymore.
More precisely, u decide not to carry the ill will
and vindictive wishes against the perpetrator around with u any more.


Quote:
Being angry and/or blaming others degrades quality of life,
and me having the best quality of life is far more important to me
than whether those who transgressed against me deserved to be forgiven.
Not to imply that I was ever the victim of much transgression,
but in my earlier years, I adhered to the point of vu that if anyone ever did
transgress against me, then I 'd be happier after avenging myself upon him.

After THAT, I coud forgive him.

In subsequent years: I changed my mind.
Call me superstitious.

EXAMPLE #1
In the 1970s, a friend of mine, Donald, intentionally offended me, by surprize,
with gratuitously rude language. I was taken aback; I silently considered the situation.

In my mind, he was on trial, unbeknownst to him.
It was as tho I held him in the palm of my hand.
I knew that whatever I decided was going to happen to him,
was indeed going to happen to him. After considering the different possibilities:
I decided that -- on a whim, because I just felt like it -- I 'd allow
the scales of justice to remain out-of-balance.
On a caprice: I decided to let him get away with it
(tho I knew that in the future, I coud bring a lot of vindictive power to bear).

About a year or two later, he bemoaned circumstances of emotional distress
inflicted upon him by someone of our acquaintance who used the same words
against him that he had used against me.
HER use of that same language was much worse, more humiliating,
than if I had avenged myself. It was very poetic justice -- beyond a-million-to-one-shot.
I was very surprized. I reminded him. He accused me of putting a curse on him.

EXAMPLE #2
In 1978, I called the NY Telephone Co. and was informed that
a call from a non-coin operated fone cost 6 cents. In May of 1978,
I attended a convention of a social group that I 'd just joined.
It was in a large Manhattan hotel on the 18th floor.
I wanted to call my dead friend, Neil, just to ascertain that all was OK.
There was a fone on a table in the hospitality suite.
I was too lazy to descend to the lobby to use a fone booth.
I thought it 'd be polite to ask permission, rather than to just call.
I asked one Marlene, who was on the Board of Directors.
She refused. I offered 25 cents for a local call: refused again.
I offered 50 cents: refused again.
$1: refused.
$2: refused. I was silently boiling mad, but restrained myself,
out of respect for private property.
A metaphysical advisor, Tony, advised that we practice forgiveness --
that we select an instance of resentment and proceed to forgive.
Marlene became my target.
I did not think much about it, tho the forgiving was rather loathsome.

In 1980, we had another convention.
This time I was on the same Board of Directors as Marlene was
and I was the Treasurer of the Convention, ex officio in possession of the Treasure.
Marlene called me for reimbursement of $6 for a fone call
for non-Mensa purposes, during the convention.
In keeping with the applicable rules established by the Board
qua personal fone calls: I refused. She was flustered.
A few days later, she called me again, renewing her demand: I refused again.
A few days later, she called me again, renewing her demand: I refused again.
A few days later, she called me again, renewing her demand: I refused again.
A few days later, she called me again, renewing her demand: I refused again.

In the privacy of my own mind,
I marvelled at the precise ratio of 100:1
of my 6 cent call and her $6 call.

EXAMPLE #3
I rescued my friend, Elliot, from a difficult situation
and took him in as a partner in my law firm,
on condition that he not engage in a particular practice
without my approval: he agreed.
He subsequently violated this promise; flagrant treachery.
I was taken aback. I did not wish to rock the boat too violently
in my own firm. I decided on forgiveness; I 'd developed a good track record with that.

Maybe a month later:
AGAIN, I became witness to super-poetic justice,
this time at the hand of a respected client, at Elliot 's personal expense.
He was reduced to an embarrassing position.

"The wheels of the gods grind slowly, but thay grind exceeding fine."

EXAMPLE #4
Another time, I had a repairman leave my place prematurely
to attend another job.
I privately n silently forgave him for failure to execute the repair.
The next day, he returned, lamenting his departure:
he said that his van had been broken into and he 'd lost valuable tools.

"Vengeance is mine" saith the Lord.

Is forgiveness de facto a weapon?
Shoud u need a license for forgiveness?
Shoud u have to REGISTER forgiveness?

David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 02:19 am
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:


If I wanted to forgive anyone for anything, I 'd damn well DO IT and forget about it.

There is no need for any "STRUGGLE"





David


Quote:
This seems to have touched a very deep nerve for you David,
and I am sorry that this is so.
No; I was just in an irritable mood.
I have no reason to forgive anyone; no one has violated any of my rights.
I have no reason to complain of anyone.
Maybe I shoud forgive Diest.


Quote:
I do not know what the nerve is, but your anger and denigration
of Diest TKO seems to me to be a sign that you need to reflect,
and consider the trigger, and not attack Diest for a reasonable question
that clearly has meaning for him, and likely for many others.
I shoud have exercised better self-discipline.
I shoud apologize to him for over-reacting.

Its just that he is supposed to be an engineer [ ? ]
If so, then on-the-job, he must generate smooth, seamless, flowing logic,
or the results of his labor will not work, ending in frustration,
defeat, consternation, chagrin, ignominy and unemployment.

Since his services are apparently accepted by his bosses,
presumably, he is able to be logical.


If that be true,
then Y does he put his logic on vacation
when he posts here, condemning his parents for events
of which he admits that thay had no knowledge ??

He actually thinks that 's fair ?
0 Replies
 
 

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