Wow, Robert.
I don't really know what I can say apart from I found that a very interesting read.
Good topic.
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ossobuco
2
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Tue 22 Sep, 2009 02:46 pm
@eoe,
Well, this thread brings tears to my eyes, in an oddly good way. Good is not the right word. Poignant maybe, grief for all, maybe.
My parents had a tough time in a lot of ways, but I am lucky in that they did love me. I find it ironic that I reflect all their faults in my own life, and once in a while some of their good.
Now to make a nice cup of cocoa, Eva...
0 Replies
eoe
2
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Tue 22 Sep, 2009 02:46 pm
@panzade,
I read alot and, well aware of a woman's tendency to select men like their fathers, I knew damn well that I wasn't going that route. I stayed away from boozers and didn't tolerate meanness or bossiness in any way. But my father was older, extremely smart, maddeningly complex, wickedly handsome, a major poonhound, and a master of the English language. And that's where I got tripped up because those were the guys I was weak for and, presenting a different set of hurdles, my heart was still broken over and over again. But watching my mother finally get fed up and walk away from my father for the last time made a strong impression on me. I saw that a woman could leave a man who at one time had her so wrapped up, she couldn't stay away. If Moms could do it and not only survive but thrive so could I, so while those clowns had me in their clutches for awhile, I always managed to pull myself together and walk away. I've got my mother to thank for that.
I don't really 'resent' it, because they themselves are naive, but I think my parent's attempt to wrap me up in cotton wall seriously and epically failed.
I was never taught about any real dangers, or presented with any mildly good arguments against anything 'worldly'. I was just taught most things were wrong because they 'just were', which didn't coincide with what Guns N' Roses said on the matter at all.
Consequently when I moved to London aged 19 I was the fucked girl getting thrown out of illegal raves by big men because I'd taken so many drugs they were worried they'd have to call an ambulance for me and the location would get discovered.
I don't really regret any of the stuff I've done, I just think it would have been a lot safer if I was given a bit more of a free reign and therefore didn't rebel.
I don't really regret any of the stuff I've done, I just think it would have been a lot safer if I was given a bit more of a free reign and therefore didn't rebel.
Trust me on this queenie. All the teaching of the real dangers would have fallen on deaf ears of an 18 year old.
...I can remember Eva and I laughing about our fathers"in all of their messed-up glory" a few years ago
<passes e0e a hot mug of cocoa, thanks to osso>
And yes, panz...I didn't mean to accuse anyone of lying. Just can't comprehend a parent-child relationship without a single tinge of bitterness, that's all. Your description was like some kind of dream. Don't get me wrong...I definitely felt loved by both of my parents. But as I said...nobody's perfect.
engineer -- "Forgiveness" means different things to different people. I respect your definition and hope it works for you. I've thought about it a lot, and I'm still not sure how I define it.
I don't really regret any of the stuff I've done, I just think it would have been a lot safer if I was given a bit more of a free reign and therefore didn't rebel.
Trust me on this queenie. All the teaching of the real dangers would have fallen on deaf ears of an 18 year old.
Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe I would have done it anyway.
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panzade
1
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Tue 22 Sep, 2009 03:32 pm
@Eva,
Quote:
But as I said...nobody's perfect.
My parents weren't perfect, but they would have had to do something pretty bad for me to have to forgive them.
Maybe that's where we're on different pages.
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Robert Gentel
3
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Tue 22 Sep, 2009 03:40 pm
This thread reminds me of one of my favorite songs. It's by Brazil's Nirvana, Legião Urbana, who were big in the 90s and whose lead singer died at the height of their popularity, making them the voice of their generation much like Nirvana was. It's called Pais e Filhos, which means parents and children. It's abstract and a lot will be lost in my translation but let's see if I can do it justice. It's about the conflict between parents and children and the central theme is to love people while you have the chance, and to understand that parents are confused children too that don't always know what to do either.
Lyrics and translation if you want to follow along:
Quote:
Estátuas e cofres
E paredes pintadas
Ninguém sabe
O que aconteceu...
(seems to be painting the scene of a Brazilian cemetery)
Statues and vaults
and painted walls
nobody knows
what happened
Quote:
Ela se jogou da janela
Do quinto andar
Nada é fácil de entender...
She threw herself from the window
of the fifth floor
nothing is easy to understand
Quote:
Dorme agora
Hmmmmmmmm
É só o vento
Lá fora...
(parent comforting a kid)
Sleep now
hmmmmmm
it's just the wind
outside
Quote:
Quero colo!
Vou fugir de casa
Posso dormir aqui
Com vocês
Estou com medo
Tive um pesadelo
Só vou voltar
Depois das três...
(petulant child's voice)
I want lap!
I'm gonna run away from home
can I sleep here
with you guys?
I am afraid
I had a nightmare
I'm only coming back
after three
Quote:
Meu filho vai ter
Nome de santo
Hmmmm
Quero o nome
Mais bonito...
(parent then child)
My kid will have
the name of a saint
Hmmmmm
I want a more beautiful name.
(doesn't translate well but it's expressing the conflict between older generations and their religious names in Brazil and the kid wanting to be named something less old fashioned)
Quote:
É preciso amar haahaa as pessoas
Como se não houvesse amanhã
Por que se você parar
Prá pensar
Na verdade não há...
(chorus)
You need to love people
as if there were no tomorrow
because if you stop
to think
in truth there isn't
Quote:
Me diz, por que que o céu é azul
Explica a grande fúria do mundo
São meus filhos
Que tomam conta de mim...
(child)
Tell me, why is the sky blue?
Explain the great fury of the world
(adult)
It is my children
who take care of me
Quote:
Eu moro com a minha mãe
Mas meu pai vem me visitar
Eu moro na rua
Não tenho ninguém
Eu moro em qualquer lugar...
(child 1)
I live with my mom
but my dad comes to visit
(child 2)
I live on the street
I have nobody
I live just anywhere...
Quote:
Já morei em tanta casa
Que nem me lembro mais
Eu moro com os meus pais
Huhuhuhu!...ouh! ouh!...
(child 3)
I've lived in so many houses
that I don't remember anymore
(child 4)
I live with my parents
Quote:
É preciso amar as pessoas
Como se não houvesse amanhã
Por que se você parar
Prá pensar
Na verdade não há...
(chorus)
You need to love people
as if there were no tomorrow
because if you stop
to think
in truth there isn't
Quote:
Sou uma gota d'água
Sou um grão de areia
Você me diz que seus pais
Não entendem
Mas você não entende seus pais...
I am a drop of water
I am a grain of sand
You say that your parents
don't understand
but you don't understand your parents
Quote:
Você culpa seus pais por tudo
Isso é absurdo
São crianças como você
O que você vai ser
Quando você crescer
You blame your parents for everything
this is absurd
They are children like you
What you will be
when you grow up
I think that is when a person reaches true maturity. Once they realize that their parents were and are only human beings, with the same flaws as anyone else.
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OmSigDAVID
1
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Tue 22 Sep, 2009 03:59 pm
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:
as my younger brother told me some 20 years ago,
I will never marry and have a family,
I could not bear to become the parent our father was"
Yeah, apparently the human brain is wired
so that this can happen Dys, for instance,
the radio personality Don Imus told of detesting his father
who was violently abusive when drunk on scotch.
Imus said that he resolved, with passionate intensity,
that when he became an adult (and b4) that he 'd never drink,
but that he 'd ESPECIALLY not drink scotch.
Then he grew to adulthood and became a habitual drunk on SCOTCH.
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ossobuco
1
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Tue 22 Sep, 2009 04:02 pm
I resented my mother for a bunch of years of my teens. She was, ah, non-explorational in her set thinking, boston irish, born in 1901. Obeying one's parents was a big number both in her house and in my schooling. She had been chosen high school valedictorian, but as far as I saw, stopped reading early in her life. I can understand PQ on this. I was a late bloomer, didn't start fully acting out until my late twenties (I probably still am). By then my father had died in a tough way and mother was well on her way into alzheimers. I didn't have the period of time where many families reconcile in some way as children turn into grown ups. I could resent this, which is neither of their faults, but that is useless, and as Robert said in the context of his life, many have it worse, and his was multiply harder than mine.
On Robert, I am learning from him, his takes on human communication.
This brings up another family, friends of my former husband and his brother. There were two girls that both of them had crushes on in their teens. One joined the cult Robert speaks of. The family never ever ever got over their crushing sorrow. At least the parents didn't, I don't know at this point about the sister.
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panzade
3
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Tue 22 Sep, 2009 04:09 pm
@Robert Gentel,
great tune...makes me think of Teach Your Children by CSN&Y
Quote:
And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears that your elders grew by.
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.
Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.
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fbaezer
3
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Tue 22 Sep, 2009 04:26 pm
Great thread, very good posts (specially by dlowan and Robert).
I struggled a bit -when younger- to forgive my parents for relatively petty things... like insisting that I'd jump grades and study with older kids, or embarassing me asking me questions in front of strangers so the little genius would answer... making me feel odd... and then, as an adult, my mother not listening to my advice as an economist and keeping her money in the stock market (thus almost going broke). My mom's overcaring about by (then) irresponsible brother, which I came to understand in the last years of her life...
Minimal stuff, really. Easy to forgive while I have so much to thank them for.
