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Quick answers to US politics queries for those of us not in the know.

 
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 09:52 pm
@roger,
That was one of our early political commentators, by the way.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 09:54 pm
@roger,
A sentence or 2 about Thomas Paine & his historical importance, please, Roger? Wink
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 09:56 pm
@roger,
You beat me to it! Before I could even ask!
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 09:57 pm
@msolga,
my favorite founding father, not that it matters...
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 09:58 pm
@msolga,
Well, in today's terms, he would not be counted among the liberal.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:00 pm
@Rockhead,
Of course it matters. Tell an outsider more, Rocky.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:00 pm
@roger,
Ah. I see.
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:01 pm
@roger,
I disagree.

he was very progressive, even for two centuries ago in my book...

(he was pro minimum wage)
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:06 pm
This is where this outsider first heard of Tom Paine. I assume the same Tom Paine? Though maybe not? This may be completely irrelevant (but isn't music a wonderful thing?) :

As I went out one morning
To breathe the air around Tom Paine's
I spied the fairest damsel
That ever did walk in chains
I offer'd her my hand
She took me by the arm
I knew that very instant
She meant to do me harm.

"Depart from me this moment"
I told her with my voice
Said she, "But I don't wish to"
Said I, "But you have no choice"
"I beg you, sir", she pleaded
From the corners of her mouth
"I will secretly accept you
And together we'll fly south".

Just then Tom Paine, himself
Came running from across the field
Shouting at this lovely girl
And commanding her to yield
And as she was letting go her grip
Up Tom Paine did run
"I'm sorry, sir", he said to me
"I'm sorry for what she'd done".
Rockhead
 
  3  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:09 pm
@msolga,
I'll steal from wiki again...

Thomas Paine (February 9, 1737 [O.S. January 29, 1736[1]] " June 8, 1809) was an author, pamphleteer, radical, inventor, intellectual, revolutionary, and one of the Founding Fathers of the United States.[2] He was born in England and lived and worked there until age 37, when he emigrated to the British American colonies, in time to participate in the American Revolution. His principal contributions were the powerful, widely-read pamphlet Common Sense (1776), advocating colonial America's independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain, and The American Crisis (1776"1783), a pro-revolutionary pamphlet series.

Later, Paine greatly influenced the French Revolution. He wrote the Rights of Man (1791), a guide to Enlightenment ideas. Despite not speaking French, he was elected to the French National Convention in 1792. The Girondists regarded him as an ally, so, the Montagnards, especially Robespierre, regarded him as an enemy. In December of 1793, he was arrested and imprisoned in Paris, then released in 1794. He became notorious because of The Age of Reason (1793"94), his book advocating deism, promoting reason and freethinking, and arguing against institutionalized religion and Christian doctrines.[2] He also wrote the pamphlet Agrarian Justice (1795), discussing the origins of property, and introduced the concept of a guaranteed minimum income.

Paine remained in France during the early Napoleonic era, but condemned Napoleon's dictatorship, calling him "the completest charlatan that ever existed".[3] In 1802, at President Jefferson's invitation, he returned to America where he died in 1809. Ostracized for his criticisms and ridicule of Christianity, only six people attended his funeral.


he was a very courageous and visionary man.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:09 pm
@Rockhead,
Being as objective as possible ( Wink ), Rocky, how would you describe Tom Paine's political "legacy"? I'm curious.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:11 pm
@Rockhead,
Thank you, Rocky? You answered my question as I asked it! You must be a mind reader! Smile
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:17 pm
@msolga,
shhh....(nobody else knows)
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:26 pm
@Rockhead,

Quote:
His principal contributions were the powerful, widely-read pamphlet Common Sense (1776), advocating colonial America's independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain, and The American Crisis (1776"1783), a pro-revolutionary pamphlet series.


Ah, now I understand the Glenn Beck connection from your earlier post, Roger.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:49 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:

my favorite founding father, not that it matters...
He was a good one, along with Patrick Henry n George Washington.





David
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:53 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
(& as I head out the door) .. I'm afraid you're now going to have to briefly inform us about Patrick Henry & his legacy, David. (That'll teach you for posting! Wink )

Back later on....
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 10:56 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:

I disagree.

he was very progressive, even for two centuries ago in my book...

(he was pro minimum wage)
I have very ofen pointed out
that liberalism can only exist insofar as it DEVIATES from something.
That which does not deviate, conserves the paradigm.

In this case, his deviation was from:
the doctrine of the divine right of kings
and from the right of the English Monarchy to hold its American geografy.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 12:28 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

(& as I head out the door) .. I'm afraid you're now going to have to briefly inform us about Patrick Henry & his legacy, David. (That'll teach you for posting! Wink )

Back later on....

Here is some of the pertinent historical background, Olga,
along with a sample of the oratory of Patrick Henry,
a man of passionate love of liberty. He was very energetic in the cause
of Independence from England and of freedom of the Individual citizen.
He understood the power-grabbing nature of politicians.




HISTORY:

Following the Boston Tea Party, Dec. 16, 1773, in which American Colonists
dumped 342 containers of tea into the Boston harbor, the British Parliament
enacted a series of Acts in response to the rebellion in Massachusetts.

In May of 1774, General Thomas Gage, commander of all British
military forces in the colonies, arrived in Boston, followed by the
arrival of four regiments of British troops.

The First Continental Congress met in the fall of 1774 in Philadelphia
with 56 American delegates, representing every colony, except Georgia.
On September 17, the Congress declared its opposition to the
repressive Acts of Parliament, saying they are "not to be obeyed,"
and also promoted the formation of local militia units.

Thus economic and military tensions between the colonists and the
British escalated. In February of 1775, a provincial congress was held
in Massachusetts during which John Hancock and Joseph Warren
began defensive preparations for a state of war. The English Parliament
then declared Massachusetts to be in a state of rebellion.

On March 23, in Virginia, the largest colony in America, a meeting
of the colony's delegates was held in St. John's church in Richmond.
Resolutions were presented by Patrick Henry putting the colony of
Virginia "into a posture of defense...embodying, arming, and
disciplining such a number of men as may be sufficient for that purpose."
Before the vote was taken on his resolutions, Henry delivered
the speech below, imploring the delegates to vote in favor.

He spoke without any notes in a voice that became louder and louder,
climaxing with the now famous ending. Following his speech,
the vote was taken in which his resolutions passed by a narrow margin,
and thus Virginia joined in the American Revolution.


SPEECH:

" No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism,
as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just
addressed the House, but different men often see the same subject
in different lights; and, therefore, I hope that it will not be thought
disrespectful to those gentlemen, if, entertaining as I do opinions of
a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments
freely and without reserve.

This is no time for ceremony. The question before the House is one
of awful moment to this country. For my own part I consider it as
nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion
to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate.

It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth,
and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country.
Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense,
I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and
of an act of disloyalty towards the majesty of heaven, which I revere
above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope.
We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the
song of that siren, till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part
of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty?
Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not,
and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their
temporal salvation?

For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing
to know the whole truth -- to know the worst and to provide for it.
I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided; and that is the
lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but
by the past and judging by the past, I wish to know what there has
been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years,
to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased
to solace themselves and the House?

Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received?
Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet.
Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how
this gracious reception of our petition comports with these warlike
preparations which cover our waters and darken our land.
Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation?
Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force
must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir.
These are the implements of war and subjugation -- the last
arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means
this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission?
Can gentlemen assign any other possible motives for it?
Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for
all this accumulation of navies and armies?

No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us; they can be meant for no other.
They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the
British ministry have been so long forging and what have we to oppose to them?
Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years.
Have we anything new to offer on the subject? Nothing.

We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable;
but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication?
What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted?
Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves longer.

Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm
which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated;
we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne,
and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands
of the ministry and Parliament.

Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced
additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded;
and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne.
In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace
and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope.

If we wish to be free -- if we mean to preserve inviolate those
inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending --
if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we
have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves
never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be
obtained, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms
and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak -- unable to cope with so
formidable an adversary, but when shall we be stronger?
Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are
totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in
every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction?
Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance, by lying supinely
on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our
enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?

Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of the means which
the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people,
armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that
which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can
send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone.
There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations,
and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us.

The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active,
the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough
to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no
retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged!
Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is
inevitable -- and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come!

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter.
Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace.
The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north
will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms!

Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle?
What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have?

IS LIFE SO DEAR OR PEACE SO SWEET
AS TO BE PURCHASED AT THE PRICE OF CHAINS AND SLAVERY?

FORBID IT, ALMIGHTY GOD!
I KNOW NOT WHAT COURSE OTHERS MAY TAKE,
BUT AS FOR ME: GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH !
"

Patrick Henry - March 23, 1775

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 01:09 am
@OmSigDAVID,
That was certainly some speech (especially given that it was off the cuff), David!: "Give me liberty or give me death."

So this afternoon, apart from learning quite a bit about Glenn Beck (who I asked about), I've learned something about two different A2Ker's favourite founding fathers. Something I didn't expect to come up here, but found interesting all the same. The notion that some of you actually have favourite founding fathers & speak of them with such enthusiasm early in the 21st century is really interesting in itself. Someone really should start a history/politics thread to discuss the founding fathers of your country & how they influence your political thinking to this day.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 01:14 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

That was certainly some speech (especially given that it was off the cuff), David!:
"Give me liberty or give me death."

So this afternoon, apart from learning quite a bit about Glenn Beck (who I asked about),
I've learned something about two different A2Ker's favourite founding fathers.
Something I didn't expect to come up here, but found interesting all the same.

The notion that some of you actually have favourite founding fathers
& speak of them with such enthusiasm early in the 21st century is really interesting in itself.
Life without freedom has no value.
The personal liberty in which we spend our lives
derives from their efforts on our behalf.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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