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Airline bomber getting out of prison

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 05:03 am
Quote:
Despite yesterday's criticism, two Labour voices spoke up for MacAskill.

The former first minister Henry McLeish became the first prominent Labour politician to back the decision when he told the BBC: "This is probably the right decision made for the right reasons."

And in the Holyrood exchanges, Labour MSP Malcolm Chisholm commended a "courageous decision which is entirely consistent with both the principles of Scots law and Christian morality".

The Megrahi decision has seen Salmond's administration enduring the most intense criticisms and attacks since it came to power, after Robert Mueller, the FBI director, described it as "making a mockery of the rule of law".

The US president, Barack Obama, also joined US relatives of the 270 people killed in the bombing by criticising the decision.

But MacAskill's "brave" decision had earlier been supported by prominent religious figures. "The showing of mercy in any situation is not a sign of weakness," said Archbishop Mario Conti, Roman Catholic archbishop of Glasgow. "In this situation, with the pressures and circumstances of the case, it seemed to me a sign of manifest strength."

In an open letter sent to all MSPs before the debate yesterday, Rev Ian Galloway, from the protestant Church of Scotland, said compassionate release was a Christian and moral act. "It was about what it is to believe in justice, what it is to believe in mercy, what it is to be truly human," he said.

It also emerged that MacAskill had formally asked the US embassy in London for permission to release a letter written earlier this month, which said the US government believed that giving Megrahi compassionate release was "far preferable" to transferring him to serve the rest of his sentence in a Libyan jail under the prisoner transfer agreement ratified by the UK government in April.

Informed government sources said the US embassy letter still firmly rejected sending Megrahi home to his family: the US wanted Megrahi to stay in Scotland, effectively under house arrest. They knew in advance that releasing Megrahi would prove deeply controversial.

But MacAskill told MSPs yesterday that allowing Megrahi to remain in Scotland would have been unnecessarily expensive: Strathclyde police had said it would take at least 48 officers to provide round-the-clock security.

He also said that putting Megrahi into a hospice to die would be "ludicrous" and would be deeply offensive to ordinary people living there. He said its patients "would have seen a travelling circus which would degrade them".

The minister repeated that his decision to free Megrahi was based on clear medical advice that he had less than three months to live, and the views of the governor of Greenock prison, prison social workers and the parole board.

Justice and humanity were "defining characteristics" of being Scottish, he said, and outweighed the atrocity Megrahi had been convicted for. "The perpetration of an atrocity and outrage cannot and should not be a basis for losing sight of who we are," he said.

One of Megrahi's leading supporters at Holyrood, the SNP MSP for South of Scotland, Christine Grahame, is planning to use next week's debate to name a Syrian exile living under US protection in Washington DC as the true mastermind of the Lockerbie bombing, under parliamentary privilege.

Source
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 05:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,
You really should force other countries to use US-law, just and only US-law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That would be nice however we surely have a right to do our best to protect our citizens or are you claiming that killing an American for changing his/her faith from say Muslin to Christian should be allow as we need to respect other countries laws?

If an American woman is not allow to leave a foreign country because she had married in a country where the wife need permission from her husband to leave we have a duty to leave her and not do out best to get her home?

Come on you brave gentleman address the issue.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 05:35 am
@BillRM,
Though I'd though that this thread was about the "Lockerbie bomber's" release ...

... well, doesn't the USA have treaties with other countries about special/certain law issues?

I do know that some are excluded. For instance, if an American kidnaps (according to our law) a child (which was according to our courts rulings in the guidance of his/her mother), the USA don't bother.
And we have to accept such. Though the child is German (and American, according to US law).

But since the above is really an aside ... back to the thread.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 07:52 am
@BillRM,
But the Scots did arrest, try and convict this man. What you are complaining about is not the due process of law, only that you think the sentence is a few months shorter than what you prefer. Do you think the US should go off the deep end if another country prosectuted a crime on their soil, convicted the perpetrator and then gave them a sentence that was three months shorter than what they would have received in the US?
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 04:30 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

But the Scots did arrest, try and convict this man. What you are complaining about is not the due process of law, only that you think the sentence is a few months shorter than what you prefer. Do you think the US should go off the deep end if another country prosectuted a crime on their soil, convicted the perpetrator and then gave them a sentence that was three months shorter than what they would have received in the US?

Some of us think that the act of giving a compassionate release to a mass murderer of men, women, and children, who showed no mercy towards his hundreds of victims is inappropriate and sends the wrong signal. The length of time he has to live doesn't enter into it.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 04:35 pm
@Brandon9000,
But other countries routinely disagree with us on the length of sentences. In this case, the difference is three months. If they had originally sentenced this guy to six months probation, you would have a good point, but they sentenced him to life minus three months compared to life (or death) in the US. This doesn't strike me as a huge miscarriage of justice, only a cultural difference is sentencing, and not a big one at that.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 04:36 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
are you claiming that killing an American for changing his/her faith from say Muslin to Christian should be allow as we need to respect other countries laws?


Should other countries respect U. S. laws when they are applied in U. S. courts?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 04:39 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
Some of us think that the act of giving a compassionate release ... is inappropriate and sends the wrong signal.


It's not a signal by the U. S. It may be an inappropriate signal but it's really got nothing to do with the U. S. Why you are concerned about the signals sent by another country is puzzling.

Do you care if another man's wife wears clothing you feel is inappropriate? do you tell him? do you try to convince him to speak to his wife about how she should dress?

You may think the comparison is silly, but I feel it is as sensible as the U. S. trying to mix into other countries' business.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 04:40 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

But other countries routinely disagree with us on the length of sentences. In this case, the difference is three months. If they had originally sentenced this guy to six months probation, you would have a good point, but they sentenced him to life minus three months compared to life (or death) in the US. This doesn't strike me as a huge miscarriage of justice, only a cultural difference is sentencing, and not a big one at that.

Although pretending to refute my statement, you're not actually referring to anything I said. I said that some people regard it as inappropriate and believe that it sends the wrong signal to give compassionate release to a terrorist whose crime was so horrific. Whether he had three years to live or one week is irrelevant to my point. It's the act of granting compassionate release.
lmur
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 04:42 pm
@Brandon9000,
Some do, yes.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 04:43 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Some of us think that the act of giving a compassionate release ... is inappropriate and sends the wrong signal.


It's not a signal by the U. S. It may be an inappropriate signal but it's really got nothing to do with the U. S. Why you are concerned about the signals sent by another country is puzzling.

Do you care if another man's wife wears clothing you feel is inappropriate? do you tell him? do you try to convince him to speak to his wife about how she should dress?

You may think the comparison is silly, but I feel it is as sensible as the U. S. trying to mix into other countries' business.

I object if terrorists and/or murderers aren't punished, and I object if they are punished but receive inappropriately mild sentences no matter who is doing the sentencing. I want people who commit vile crimes of great cruelty to be punished severely. And one more time, I am not trying to mix in Scottish politics, I'm stating an opinion.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 04:47 pm
@Brandon9000,
I'm choosing to look at the big picture instead of fixating on the "compassionate release" part. The Scots locked him up for all those young, healthy, potentially productive years and turned him out on his death bed. You think justice wasn't served. I think you are overstating the issue. He lost everything as intended. I think the deterrent effect was served and that the entire issue is just a cultural difference between the Scottish system and ours.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 04:48 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
The issue is not repeat not beside the point as people here had claim that we have no moral right to interfere with the working of other nations laws even when those laws impact American citizens such as releasing a mass murderer of Americans to a hero welcome in the country that sent him out to murder in the first place,

So do we have a moral right to interfere with the working of other nations laws when those laws cause harm to our citizens or not?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 04:51 pm
@engineer,
But the Scots did arrest, try and convict this man. What you are complaining about is not the due process of law, only that you think the sentence is a few months shorter than what you prefer. Do you think the US should go off the deep end if another country prosectuted a crime on their soil, convicted the perpetrator and then gave them a sentence that was three months shorter than what they would have received in the US?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
A little bit more then that my friend or did you not see the hero welcome given this gentleman on his return home/

How would you feel my friend if your wife or your child had been kill by this man and then you get to see a hero welcome for him?

Would you say oh well it only a matter of months before his death or would you view it as a great insult toward the memory of your love ones?
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 07:17 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

A little bit more then that my friend or did you not see the hero welcome given this gentleman on his return home/

How would you feel my friend if your wife or your child had been kill by this man and then you get to see a hero welcome for him?

Would you say oh well it only a matter of months before his death or would you view it as a great insult toward the memory of your love ones?

I asked this question earlier and no one seemed to know the answer. Exactly why was this guy celebrated on his return? Was it a hero's welcome? The welcome people give to a lost loved one returning home? The welcome one gives to someone you believed wrongly imprisoned? If those people cheering him believed he committed the bombing and got away with it, I'd share your irritation (but I'd be more likely to boycott Libya than Scotland.) But many Libyans believe this guy was falsely imprisoned. To them, this is like Clinton coming home from N. Korea with our imprisoned journalists.

Regardless of that, I don't fault the Scots for following their system, nor do I praise them. It's different than what we would do and in the big scheme of things not really important. This guy will have his final judgment soon enough.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 07:58 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
I object if terrorists and/or murderers aren't punished, and I object if they are punished but receive inappropriately mild sentences no matter who is doing the sentencing. I want people who commit vile crimes of great cruelty to be punished severely.


Sure. But you seem to only be complaining when it's a foreign government that does the sentencing. I'm sure you remember the thread here on A2K about the Afghani cab driver, Dilawar, who was picked up by American soldiers and detained for interrogation in Bagram. Even though it soon became clear to his interrogators that he was completely innocent, they didn't let him go. In fact, he was chained to the ceiling, beaten up, had his his legs broken to the point where they would have had to be amputated if he had survived, and then was left hanging in his cell until he died.

Back then, you said that "those responsible ought to be given the maximum possible punishment", and that "the cases of abuse discovered have been vigorously prosecuted", but when it was pointed out to you that the soldiers responsible for this crime had received ridiculously low sentences (like, for example, 75 days in prison, a reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge), you didn't come back to comment on that.

Now, I'm sure you're too busy to keep track of every discussion that you only shortly participated in, and I don't mean to interpret your failure to come back to that particular thread (or similar threads about the whole Bagram issue back then) as an endorsement of those sentences. However, this case was so much in the spotlight that it makes me wonder why there's no record of you coming out to condemn the ridiculously mild sentences those responsible for a vicious crime received. It would seem that to somebody so keen on prosecuted crimes to the fullest extent, without mercy, these sentences should have been much more cause for outrage and anger then current case in Scotland.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 08:23 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
It's not a signal by the U. S. It may be an inappropriate signal but it's really got nothing to do with the U. S. Why you are concerned about the signals sent by another country is puzzling.


What's wrong with being concerned with what goes on in other countries?
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 08:25 pm
@old europe,
You could have said all that in two words: tu quoque.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 08:44 pm
@Robert Gentel,
That's absolutely right.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 02:05 pm

There was a nice Shakespeare quotation in the paper today, pertaining to this:

Not the king's crown, nor the deputed sword,
The marshal's truncheon, nor the judges robe,
Become them with one half so good a grace
As mercy does.
0 Replies
 
 

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