22
   

Gently chastising other people's kids, or the home field disadvantage

 
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2009 11:46 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Dunno about that, Eva. Sozlet's friend rather crossed a line, too, don't you think? I see Sozlet & Robert's childhood situations (& the circumstances of the "giving & receiving" in each case) as quite different. ... quite different contexts. I think Sozlet came out of her situation very well in the end. I wonder what her friend learned from the episode?


I agree, the two situations are very different and probably shouldn't be compared.

But no, I don't think Sozlet's friend crossed a line. Sozlet had told her she could have one of the fishes, and when it was time to collect the prizes, the man handed her a fish. So it was hers. Sozlet had a lot of nerve asking her friend to take the less attractive fish so she could have the "prettier" one. That was purely selfish, and her friend had every right to keep her fish. In the end, I think her friend learned that Sozlet was perhaps not as generous as she thought.

Props to Sozobe for finding a way to make Sozlet's fish more desirable, though! Very smooth!
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2009 11:52 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert, I asked about your financial situation at the time because ... well, if you have very little to start with & you choose to give this away to someone who has even less .. well, that's being very compassionate & generous.

Quote:
I think I was about 8 or 9 then, but I really just know that I wasn't 10 and I could have been 7. I'm horrible with dates and time and only know I wasn't 10 because I remember my 10th birthday being in the US while this happened in Japan.


I asked about your age at the time because I was wondering about at what stage a child might be responsive to the needs of others, compared to that child's own personal wants. If you'd said 4 - 5 years old, I would have thought you'd been an extraordinarily advanced child! Wink
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2009 11:57 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
Re: msolga (Post 3690374)
msolga wrote:

Sozlet's friend rather crossed a line, too, don't you think?



I agree, and I think much more so than the small gaffe I think Sozlet made.


Yes.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 12:10 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
I asked about your age at the time because I was wondering about at what stage a child might be responsive to the needs of others, compared to that child's own personal wants. If you'd said 4 - 5 years old, I would have thought you'd been an extraordinarily advanced child! Wink


Dunno, thinking back to the kids around me growing up it seems 5 is about average to be able to start being able to think that way. I'm impressed when I see 3-year-olds stop being selfish. Toddlers are some selfish bastards!

That's what my dog reminds me of, a bully toddler.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 12:13 am
@msolga,
How old is Sozlet now? I think she's done remarkably well in coping with a situation which could have caused considerable angst in this friendship. So a fish is a fish. She's learned to love the fish she has! Smile

She made all the adjustments. Her friend made none (that I'm aware of.) I hope her friend gets this.


0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 12:18 am
@Robert Gentel,
Smile

Toddlers & naughty dogs. Laughing
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 12:25 am
@Eva,
Ah Eva. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

It sounds as though Sozlet is already seeing her fish as rather unique & different. Which it is, of course! Smile
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 07:08 am
@Robert Gentel,
Whoa, had to turn off the computer right after posting, didn't expect to see 46 responses in the morning!

This post of Robert's that I'm responding to is a really good one, this is a great summary:

Robert wrote:
But maybe what they are saying is that they wouldn't chastise the other kids and only would care about their own kid's gaffe, which is what I'd think is the socially acceptable thing to do there.


I chose the fish situation as an example because it was at least somewhat ambiguous and because it was what reminded me of this topic, which I'd been thinking of for a while. (In this situation, I agree that a more-perfect action of sozlet's would have been to just accept the fish and leave it at that, but she ain't perfect and I don't think asking was that bad. Especially because she asked conversationally and accepted the "no" without a blink or pause -- more "nothing ventured, nothing gained," than anything else.)

*I* was the one who had "this aint' fair" rumblings, but didn't do anything about it (and after reading responses here am more confident about that).

Still, yes, this is very much what I'm interested in:

Robert wrote:
I was actually curious myself to know what other people think of the core thrust of sozobe's question before I got all rambly telling stories. Because my impression is that while a bunch of people might say it's a good idea to teach someone else's kid something I doubt many actually have the guts to do that in America. Parents are very defensive about their kids there!
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 07:55 am
@Eva,
Eva wrote:

But no, I don't think Sozlet's friend crossed a line. Sozlet had told her she could have one of the fishes, and when it was time to collect the prizes, the man handed her a fish. So it was hers. Sozlet had a lot of nerve asking her friend to take the less attractive fish so she could have the "prettier" one. That was purely selfish, and her friend had every right to keep her fish. In the end, I think her friend learned that Sozlet was perhaps not as generous as she thought.

Props to Sozobe for finding a way to make Sozlet's fish more desirable, though! Very smooth!


Exactly Exactly Exactly!!!!!

If I didn't come across well in my comments, this is EXACTLY what I'm saying.

Silly example (but this whole this has turned silly), and the closest I can think of before the coffe kicks in....

I win a game of chance, and a token for an ice cream sundae. I take another chance and win another token.

Eva and I decide to walk around the mall for a bit before going to the fancy ice cream shoppe to collect "my" reward.

I hand the waitress my 2 tokens, and she comes back with 1 sundae (for whatever reason; her hands were otherwise full, there was a temporary shortage of sundaes in the back, no reason at all) and puts it in front of Eva, even though I gave her the 2 tokens because; she forgot I was the one who handed her the tokens, she was busy trying to get sundaes for other people as well, it's just an ice cream sundae for crying out loud, you'll both have one in a minute, etc)

30 seconds later she comes out of the kitchen with mine and puts it in front of me.

I noticed that even though both sundaes incorporate (in Delaware) the essence of a sundae, Eva's cherries and nuts are more attractively arranged.

Would I ask eva to trade? Would eva say "mine is more atttractive, AND has 1 more cherry, since it was your tokens, you take this one"

No....we'd both just eat our sundaes.


Actually, putting myself back in time, into the place of sozlets friend. I know for myself I would have felt really dismayed at this sudden demand on our friendship. I would have given sozlet the pretty fish and taken the other, looking at it and thinking "I guess this ugly fish is all I'm worth. Anyone has the power to come and take something nice I have." I would have had the sense that if I didn't give her the pretty fish, my friend may not like me any more, and/or maybe worse, her mother might tell me I'm being selfish for keeping the fish her daughter wants, because after all, BOTH the fish are really hers. In all, I would have gotten the message that anyone, at any time, could take away something I liked, just because they wanted it.

I would have been fine if the festival worker had handed me the not pretty fish, because, you get what you get.....but being asked to trade would have made me feel like I can't even keep what I got. It wouldn't have occured to me to refuse the trade, unconsciously knowing that now I'd be seen as the problem either way.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 08:18 am
@Eva,
Eva wrote:

And I'm with ehBeth. I would have given sozlet a "look" and a later talking-to for putting her friend on the spot like that. There's a fine line between asserting one's rights and selfishness, and I think she crossed it.


I'm on board with this, too. In fact, we often got that LOOK from mom, and I've used it myself. I was telling my 7 yr old son one day that when we are going to someone's house and are offered a piece of cake, you take the small piece and when they are at your house, you offer them the big piece. He said, 'So when do I ever get the big one?" lol

**** like this happens all the time in life - dealing with it as kids is the only way to learn the polite way of handling it. And in the bigger scheme of things, the size of your piece of cake or the attractiveness of your fish is not a big deal. What is a big deal is how you're raised to handle these times and what you learn from it. I wanted my kids to learn to differentiate what's important from what's not - it's the generosity of spirit that's more important here. Looking out for No. 1 all the time is not the way I want to live and I don't admire that in anybody. We don't live in isolation.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 08:31 am
Still on the specifics...

I didn't see it happen to give a look at the time btw. I saw them talking -- it was even and pleasant throughout -- but not what they said. Later, as we were walking to the car sozlet told me what had happened, and shrugged. I shrugged too. That was that. (I didn't say either "you won both fish, you should have had first pick" or "how dare you ask whether she wanted to switch.")

Everyone seems very comfortable reprimanding their own child. Still going for whether you're comfortable reprimanding someone else's, and if so what the stakes would need to be. (What if sozlet had won both fish, given one to K, and then K had been the one to ask for sozlet's prettier fish?)
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 08:42 am
@sozobe,
For what it's worth, I don't think it's my business to reprimand other people's children. I would ask children visiting our home to take their shoes off like we do or not swear in my home (never happened), or quit yelling, but if they want to eat their dinner with a knife instead of a fork, that's none of my business.

Glad it wasn't that important to your daughter.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 08:54 am
@Mame,
So you would reprimand if there was swearing, or leaving shoes on, or yelling.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 08:54 am
@sozobe,
Quote:
Everyone seems very comfortable reprimanding their own child. Still going for whether you're comfortable reprimanding someone else's, and if so what the stakes would need to be. (What if sozlet had won both fish, given one to K, and then K had been the one to ask for sozlet's prettier fish?)

I wouldn't have reprimanded anyone - I would have let my daughter decide what she wanted to do and that would be that. If the girl is someone who wants to have the prettier fish - that's who she is...how're you gonna reprimand her for manifesting who she is?

I never reprimand other peoples' children unless their parents aren't present and they are endangering themselves or another child or someone else.
But, being a teacher, I have no problem with walking up to unattended children when they're doing something dangerous or questionable and making them aware that whatever they're doing isn't a good idea.
Once I saw a kid stripping bark off the trunk of a tree and twisting this branch as if to break it, and I walked over and said, 'Did you know that if you keep doing that, you could kill that tree?'
He said, 'No.'
And I said, 'Well you could. So you need to stop, okay?'

If the parent is present but unaware of what the child is doing, I make the parent aware of what the child is doing.
But if the child is just being him or herself, maybe obnoxious, but not dangerous - I mind my own business.

Once a woman reprimanded me for reprimanding my daughter. My son was at swim lessons and Olivia and I were sitting on the bleachers waiting for him - she was about two - and she saw some gum sticking out of a woman's purse and she took it - right from the lady's purse. I took it from her and handed it back to the lady and said to Olivia, 'No - you don't take things that belong to other people' and the lady said, 'Oh, she's so cute...let her have it...how can you take that away from her?' and handed it back.
I told her, 'No, I can't let her have it- it won't be okay when she's thirteen and not so cute for her to be putting her hands in someone else's purse and taking their things.'
The woman didn't seem to understand my reasoning - but I also didn't get hers. Where did she get the idea that she could she tell me that my standards of behavior for my child were wrong?

If a child is at my house - I make them stick to my rules - but it's never really reprimanding - so much as informing. Most kids I've run into appreciate being respected enough to be informed and then allowed to make their own decision.
One kid, Jesse, wanted to walk on my four foot high picket fence. And I caught him in the act - he was pretty good at it - I told him, 'Jesse- you have to get down from there - that's very dangerous.'
He said, 'Not for me- I can do it...see?'
He was about ten and very agile and coordinated.
I said, 'Well, yeah - maybe you can - but not here at my house. You need to get down or I'll have to send you home.'
He got down.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 08:56 am
@Mame,
agreeing there with mame.

I had a child in my house where I had to say "leave that cat alone" and "don't go down that hallway to the back of the house". In fact the mother was there when I said those things, but apparantly she was fine with her son running all around.

That's because it was my house.

If we'd both been in a third persons house, it wouldn't have been my place to tell her kid what to do....although I would have said to the mother "wow, johnny going back into their bedrooms" hoping that might bring the mothers attention around.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 09:34 am
@sozobe,
Yes, I would reprimand for House Rules. If they were obnoxious, they wouldn't be invited back. I've reprimanded my nieces and nephews lots of times for screaming, yelling, jumping on my furniture, dragging something sharp over my hardwood, slamming doors... that kind of thing. But nothing related to "lessons in life" or how to behave.

I think you did right in that situation, for the record.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 09:49 am
@Mame,
My house my rules of course. When I am outside the house and responsible for other kids beside mine own it is still my rules. The consequences for not following my rules could be ending what ever we are doing, or it may be that I never take them again. Maybe I live in a rarefied environment (military, often on military bases) but even today it is assummed that the responsible parent is in charge, that the parent in charge will set rules and enforce rules without consulting with the other parents. After the fact talk does happen, and agreements are made about future expectations.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 10:59 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
I wonder what her friend learned from the episode?


That sozlet's only a 'giver' if the gift isn't better than she'd thought it would be?

Hopefully, sozlet's friend is a cool kid and will ignore sozlet's minor etiquette gaffe.

At that age, I wasn't so cool. I would have handed over the 'pretty' fish, amd would probably have asked my mother to tell sozlet's mother that I wasn't allowed to spend time with her any more.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 11:29 am
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
Still going for whether you're comfortable reprimanding someone else's, and if so what the stakes would need to be.


I'm often the one giving 'the look' to M.A.'s kids. She expects me to do that if I'm with them with or without her. Same thing with D.'s daughter and all of M.'s kids. Actually all of my friends know that there will be a look, and generally some kind of conversation later on.

hmmm, realizing that I'm having trouble with 'reprimand'.

I sort of split the things I'll respond to (with other people's kids) into a couple of categories. Safety and what I'd call manners (but not manners like curtseying - more like courtesy issues).

Safety - for the kids I'm with, or the safety of other people - I'm not going to blink before acting/speaking. Manners - usually a look with a later conversation. In some situations, the conversation might not wait til I have a chance to talk to their parents. Something like shoving in front of other kids in a line, there will be a look, an action and an immediate conversation.

General noisiness and carrying on, I'm going to ignore (unless the carrying on component is heading for a safety issue).
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 11:44 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

I've tried to live my life that way, and for the most part it's never really hurt me. Putting others first whenever I can in matters of conflicting interests has made me trusting friends who I can count on when I need it. I don't believe in karma and a magical "what goes around comes around" but I think it can never hurt to try to out-generous your fellow man because I find that many times people respond in kind, and my friends treat me the same way. It's gotten to the point where we are making side deals with the waiters to get first dibs on the check so the other guy doesn't get to nab it first.


Me too, again from a parenting model. My mother sounds similar to yours in terms of putting someone else's interests ahead of her own (and sometimes our own). She always pushed us to put ourselves in the other person's shoes. She'd listen patiently if I went wailing to her about some injustice or other then she'd ask for the other side of the story. We didn't get off with an overly biased version of it either. I've found myself using the same approach here occasionally, as well as with my own kids.

As to the situation with Sozlet, I think the end result is just fine. So was the process, actually. Sozlet has a fish, the friend has a fish, both girls are happy and probably willing to play again today or tomorrow. They resolved it themselves. Sozlet had a moment of envy, got herself through it, and moved on. Well done, Sozlet!
0 Replies
 
 

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