Gently chastising other people's kids, or the home field disadvantage

@msolga,

Quote:

hawkeye, they were at a fair. Having fun. I don't think Soz possibly have anticipated that this was potentially a situation that she needed to be "control" of! You can't control everything, ya know

I have three kids, I was a stay at home dad for ten years, and I will tell you that kids fighting over toys or having hurt feelings over toys is such a common problem that vigilance on mitigating the problem should be standard operating procedure.

1 Reply

@msolga,

I agree with you both in ways. If I were in the guest child's shoes I'd think it were only fair for sozlet to have the nicest fish and I'd have offered it without being asked. I'd be happy to have gotten a free fish at all.

If I were in sozlet's shoes I'd have kept the nice one if it were handed to me but if not I'd not ask for it. Even though I'd feel like I had the right to the fish of my choosing I'd feel too self-interested to ask for the nice one and it would just be like extra icing on the generosity cake that the friend gets the nice fish.

And if I were in sozobe's shoes I'd not have chastised either of the kids.

I'm not saying that any of this is the "right " thing to do. I often hear that I should be more assertive when it comes to my self interests so I may not be a good moral compass in these matters but that's the way I was raised. My parents probably would have offered the other kid the nice fish even if I'd have been handed it. They were generous to a fault! I still remember the look on my mom's face when I balked at giving away my only toy to a more unfortunate kid who'd been having a rough time. She told me it was my toy and I had the right to do as I pleased but the pure disappointment her face showed in my lack of generosity shamed me into giving it.

I've tried to live my life that way, and for the most part it's never really hurt me. Putting others first whenever I can in matters of conflicting interests has made me trusting friends who I can count on when I need it. I don't believe in karma and a magical "what goes around comes around" but I think it can never hurt to try to out-generous your fellow man because I find that many times people respond in kind, and my friends treat me the same way. It's gotten to the point where we are making side deals with the waiters to get first dibs on the check so the other guy doesn't get to nab it first.

There have been a lot of times where I feel like I had a right to something I didn't take advantage of, but I think that avoiding self-interest in conflict hasn't hurt me in the balance of things.

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@hawkeye10,

But in this case, hawkeye, it doesn't sound like there was a "fight", exactly. Wink

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Fixing the problem afterwords is hugely problematic, preventing the problem was the correct way to go. YOU are the adult, you must act like the adult, and bend the result to your will.

Why is it this huge problem? Why not just let it go like she did? What makes you think her will is to make sure her kid gets the nice fish at all costs (the "take offense" that you speak of)?

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

Why is it this huge problem? Why not just let it go like she did? What makes you think her will is to make sure her kid gets the nice fish at all costs (the "take offense" that you speak of)?

At ALL COSTS? Her kid won the loot, it was her responsibility to make sure that her kid got what fairness dictates that she should get, which is the one she wanted. Allowing the unjust result to stand teaches this kid the wrong lesson, which is that her mom will not go to even minimal efforts to see to it that she gets what she should get. God knows that there is more than enough unfairness in this world, when we as parents have the opportunity to see to it that our kid gets a fair shake we must do it.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Why is it this huge problem? Why not just let it go like she did? What makes you think her will is to make sure her kid gets the nice fish at all costs (the "take offense" that you speak of)?

At ALL COSTS? Her kid won the loot, it was her responsibility to make sure that her kid got what fairness dictates that she should get, which is the one she wanted. Allowing the unjust result to stand teaches this kid the wrong lesson, which is that her mom will not go to even minimal efforts to see to it that she gets what she should get. God knows that there is more than enough unfairness in this world, when we as parents have the opportunity to see to it that our kid gets a fair shake we must do it.

Perfect example of why the rest of the world despise the US.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

At ALL COSTS?

I was specific, you yourself alluded to the distinct possibility of the other kid being offended. This is a cost.

You chided her for not being an "adult" and not imposing her "will" but my point is that how can you know her "will" is to ensure her kid gets the nice fish even if that means offending the other kid?

Quote:

Her kid won the loot, it was her responsibility to make sure that her kid got what fairness dictates that she should get, which is the one she wanted.

Sometimes it's not worth offending someone to take your just desserts. Sometimes there are greater responsibilities than ensuring you and yours get your and yours'.

Quote:

Allowing the unjust result to stand teaches this kid the wrong lesson, which is that her mom will not go to even minimal efforts to see to it that she gets what she should get.

That is one way of looking at it. Another is that is is better to give than it is to receive.

Quote:

God knows that there is more than enough unfairness in this world, when we as parents have the opportunity to see to it that our kid gets a fair shake we must do it.

Sometimes getting a fair shake is important, sometimes it isn't. It doesn't sound like sozlet was too bothered.

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@dadpad,

Quote:

Perfect example of why the rest of the world despise the US.

I realize that rewarding the one who is successful over the one who is not is a radical concept for some people.

Edit: the above goes to Robert as well. All of life's little injustices add up, we as parents need to do what we can to keep the number that our kids suffer down as best we can.

1 Reply

@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

Sozlet asked K if she could have the prettier one.

That would have rated a "look", and likely a conversation later on. Still does when MA and I take her kids out.

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@hawkeye10,

I'd consider it a far greater injustice to be born to parents who held your attitudes than to occasionally get the ugly fish. I think sozobe's instincts were fine and I find the unrelenting self-interest posing as "justice" untoward.

Life isn't about "getting yours" to everyone. I for one would be much more happy with my friend getting the fish she wanted than getting the nicer fish. It's much more rewarding to me.

Now if it were two winning lottery tickets one for a million and one for a thousand I may well stake out my self-interest that may be big enough of a difference to make me stake my claim, but not everyone is going to feel self-interest the same way as you do, and some may find it in their own interests to put the interests of others first in this kind of scenario where the material reward doesn't outweigh the satisfaction of being generous to a friend.

I'd hate to live my life always worried about minuscule and ultimately unimportant "injustices". It sounds like an unhappy way to live.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

I've tried to live my life that way, and for the most part it's never really hurt me. Putting others first whenever I can in matters of conflicting interests has made me trusting friends who I can count on when I need it. I don't believe in karma and a magical "what goes around comes around" but I think it can never hurt to try to out-generous your fellow man because I find that many times people respond in kind, and my friends treat me the same way. It's gotten to the point where we are making side deals with the waiters to get first dibs on the check so the other guy doesn't get to nab it first.

That's interesting, Robert. Besides, there's that added bonus as a result of giving/conceding freely (not that I do this all the time, mind!): it usually makes you feel really good! Which is much better, in my book, than being mean & completely self-interested most of the time. I doubt that greediness contributes toward anyone actually feeling good, within themselves. But, you know, if my mother had expected me to give away my only toy when I was little (especially if the toy meant a lot to me) I think I would have felt very confused by her expectations. Especially if I'd felt that she'd be disappointed in me, or disapproved of me, if I didn't. What real choice do you actually have in a situation like that?

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

Life isn't about "getting yours" to everyone. I for one would be much more happy with my friend getting the fish she wanted than getting the nicer fish. It's much more rewarding to me

given your childhood as I believe that I know it I am surprised that you of all people are OK with parental forced generosity, which when it is all said and done is what we are talking about here.

1 Reply

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

But, you know, if my mother had expected me to give away my only toy when I was little (especially if the toy meant a lot to me) I think I would have felt very confused by her expectations. Especially if I'd felt that she'd be disappointed in me, or disapproved of me, if I didn't. What real choice do you actually have in a situation like that?

Well I was confused initially. The kid has asked for it and his mother quickly chided him for it which I thought was right because he'd really put me on the spot by asking me to choose between generosity and my toy.

Later when my mom asked me why I didn't give it away I really was confused. It wasn't really like her because I didn't have any others. If I had two I would have expected it but I didn't think it was reasonable and told her.

But then she explained, she told me that the kid, who had just arrived from another country, had lost everything, I guess I already knew or should have known that but I was being selfish and didn't really pick up on their situation. Their whole family was in a new country with the clothes they had on their backs and had to leave it all behind in the middle of the night (I don't want to get into why, because that is actually a very very long story).

She didn't force me, she told me why she had felt that way and the initial look of disappointment she had let me understand that there was much more to the story than I had been seeing, and that it wasn't an unfair request to give away my only toy (it was stupid anyway, just some wooden spindles and wire and stuff I found around the house to make a car out of) but a legitimate (to my eye then and still now) request to consider a family's misfortune and do what I could to make it easier.

She left it up to me but it was clear that they were having a rougher time than I was, and even though I could think of many good justifications for being selfish I understood why she was disappointed in my initial selfishness.

Sure, it was my toy and I didn't have many but even if I only had one jacket I'd give it to the guy who has neither a jacket or a shirt. I think that we owe it to each other to rise above our self interest when we can. We depend on a social contract for our survival and I think it is in all of our interests to make it a generous contract. I don't want to live in a world where my suffering is ignored, and I can't then justify ignoring the suffering of others.

I think she was right, when I put myself in the kids shoes it didn't take long to see that the kid was younger, more fascinated with the toy than I was, and would enjoy it a lot more. When I saw that giving the toy gave me a lot more enjoyment than keeping it would have.

I have a lot of qualms with my parenting but this isn't one of them.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

given your childhood as I believe that I know it I am surprised that you of all people are OK with parental forced generosity, which when it is all said and done is what we are talking about here.

I don't agree that we are talking about parental forced generosity. I don't think that is an effective way to teach a kid generosity because I can't imagine feeling good about being forced to be generous.

That isn't generosity, it's coercion.

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@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

...But then she explained, she told me that the kid, who had just arrived from another country, had lost everything, I guess I already knew or should have known that but I was being selfish and didn't really pick up on their situation. Their whole family was in a new country with the clothes they had on their backs and had to leave it all behind in the middle of the night (I don't want to get into why, because that is actually a very very long story).

She didn't force me, she told me why she had felt that way and the initial look of disappointment she had let me understand that there was much more to the story than I had been seeing, and that it wasn't an unfair request to give away my only toy (it was stupid anyway, just some wooden spindles and wire and stuff I found around the house to make a car out of) but a legitimate (to my eye then and still now) request to consider a family's misfortune and do what I could to make it easier.

She left it up to me but it was clear that they were having a rougher time than I was, and even though I could think of many good justifications for being selfish I understood why she was disappointed in my initial selfishness.

Ah. That makes things much clearer ... quite a bit different to how I'd initially understood the circumstances. You learned a helluva lot more than just the virtue of giving away stuff to others simply because they, or your mother, might want that. And I'd assume you weren't exactly "comfortable" financially, yourselves, at the time. Good on you for doing it. How old were you then?

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

Sure, it was my toy and I didn't have many but even if I only had one jacket I'd give it to the guy who has neither a jacket or a shirt. I think that we owe it to each other to rise above our self interest when we can. We depend on a social contract for our survival and I think it is in all of our interests to make it a generous contract. I don't want to live in a world where my suffering is ignored, and I can't then justify ignoring the suffering of others.

I'd like to give you a big hug for this, Robert, but I know how much you'd hate that. You do deserve it, though.

And I'm with ehBeth. I would have given sozlet a "look" and a later talking-to for putting her friend on the spot like that. There's a fine line between asserting one's rights and selfishness, and I think she crossed it.

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@Eva,

Quote:

I would have given sozlet a "look" and a later talking-to for putting her friend on the spot like that. There's a fine line between asserting one's rights and selfishness, and I think she crossed it.

Dunno about that, Eva. Sozlet's friend rather crossed a line, too, don't you think? I see Sozlet & Robert's childhood situations (& the circumstances of the "giving & receiving" in each case) as quite different. ... quite different contexts. I think Sozlet came out of her situation very well in the end. I wonder what her friend learned from the episode?

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

And I'd assume you weren't exactly "comfortable" financially, yourselves, at the time. Good on you for doing it. How old were you then?

We were all poor in the traditional sense of the word, but we were all so poor that we didn't know we were poor (if you've never had any money and nobody around you does you might not notice that you don't have money). Hard to explain, it was a very different world with a lot of thinking that just doesn't make sense (if sometimes pretty).

I think I was about 8 or 9 then, but I really just know that I wasn't 10 and I could have been 7. I'm horrible with dates and time and only know I wasn't 10 because I remember my 10th birthday being in the US while this happened in Japan.

1 Reply

@Eva,

Eva wrote:

I'd like to give you a big hug for this, Robert, but I know how much you'd hate that. You do deserve it, though.

What did I do wrong?

Wimmin are so damn touchy-feely!

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Sozlet's friend rather crossed a line, too, don't you think?

I agree, and I think much more so than the small gaffe I think Sozlet made. If it's better to give than to receive it's certainly better to give when you are at the same time getting than to get and refuse to give.

But maybe what they are saying is that they wouldn't chastise the other kids and only would care about their own kid's gaffe, which is what I'd think is the socially acceptable thing to do there.

In America, I'd almost just recommend just saying hi and bye to someone else's kids. It might take a village but in America it's amazing how much opposition there is to anyone else telling their kid what to do.

In Japan, I remember seeing a man walk up to a stranger's kid who was throwing a fit and knock him on the head (lightly) in a train. I thought that was shocking myself but the mom said thanks when the kid stopped. In the US, the man would likely have been shot or sued.

I was actually curious myself to know what other people think of the core thrust of sozobe's question before I got all rambly telling stories. Because my impression is that while a bunch of people might say it's a good idea to teach someone else's kid something I doubt many actually have the guts to do that in America. Parents are very defensive about their kids there!

2 Replies

Gently chastising other people's kids, or the home field disadvantage

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