47
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 08:11 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
On the facts known, it doesn't look in any way that the McMichaels engaged in 'lawful assault' (and even if it was found that their basis was lawful, I daresay that there are other issues, like proportionality).

That's why the death of the jogger should be charged as manslaughter.

Had their actions been entirely lawful, there would be no basis for charges of any sort.


vikorr wrote:
If found not to have engaged in lawful assault (or some similar lawful activity), then they have unlawfully threatened the life of the victim . The victim then would be within his lawful right to defend his life. And the McMichaels would then not have the right to 'self defence'.

"Self defense when you don't have the right to self defense" is manslaughter.


vikorr wrote:
It appears to me that is why they were charged with murder, rather than manslaughter.

It appears to me that the reason is progressive hysteria and disregard for the law.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 09:03 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
It's also pretty clear that he is running directly at Travis McMichael when the first shot is fired.
The victim, having swerved around the car to avoid the perpertrator trying to kill him from the tray of the ute...turns to find the younger perpertrator who had gotten out of the passenger seat while the victim was running on the drivers side (and so is unlikely to have seen the killer getting out of the passenger seat, or realise that his killer was going to be standing there when he, the victim, turned left around the front of the car). The victim is shot within a split second of rounding the vehicle - this is indisputably evidenced on the video. It is again, likely in turning left, that the victim didn't even know his killer was going to be there. There is clear space between the two when the first shot rings out.

Quote:
It's hard to tell which gunshot is which, but I think maybe the hand gunshot was the second of the three gunshots.
Seems like a wild stab in the dark to me by you. Three shots, three wounds - two to the chest. I doubt, if the victim had taken a shotgun shot to the chest first, that he would have kept running towards the killer. By far the most likely scenario is he put his hand out towards the shotgun to try and protect himself or grab the shotgun (both obviously for self preservation).

Quote:
I didn't notice him point a gun at the jogger. It looks to me like the jogger was trying to decide which way to go around the truck.
ROFL. Hence why the victim tried both to zig zagged + stayed close to the vehicle so the perpetrator on the back of the vehicle (minimised the perps ability to shoot the victim from the back of the ute). Your explanation makes little sense by itself, but perfect sense if McMichael Snr was armed, pointing a gun at the victim.

Quote:
All the video shows is them trying to ask the jogger some questions.
The video does not show this. The video is too far away, and without sound to support your supposition. These nutbags might have said "stop right there, I want to talk to you", but your claim doesn't hold up - the grainy, almost soundless video is unable to show that.

Everything about your interpretation of how this went down speaks of your supporting one races 'claims' over anothers (rather than looking at the whole picture for what it is).... despite obvious problems with your versions (which makes such support worse). What we do know, is the black victim was innocently going about this jog when he was hunted down by a group of white people and killed. What I can now say is actions & timings of all parties in the video, to me, show a flat out murder.
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 09:34 pm
@oralloy,
racists never think their racist posts indicate they're racist.
vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 09:38 pm
@vikorr,
By the way - the victim definitely was not 'trying to decide which way to run around the vehicle:
- he had been running to the left of the road
- there was enough room for him to run to the left
- he changes directions 4 times within around 3 seconds as he gets close to the vehicle
- his body lean is severe while doing this (ie. it is very clear he was zig zagging)

------------------------

- he runs to the right of the vehicle
- he stays close to the vehicle as he runs alongside the vehicle (obvious benefit of this last is the vehicle itself would mostly block & minimise a shot at him from a person standing on the tray)

- once he reaches the front of the vehicle, he turns sharply to the left (same benefit as running along side)

...and is shot within a split second...

...probably by someone he didn't even see before he was shot (as Jnr was in the passenger seat with door closed when the victim started running to the right of the Ute, and avoiding Snr would have consumed his attention)
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 09:57 pm
@MontereyJack,
Except no one from the left is working off of medical info. They are working off emotional info, keeping people scared. Orange man bad. Am I right?
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:12 pm
@Baldimo,
No, you are not.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:28 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
The victim, having swerved around the car to avoid the perpertrator trying to kill him from the tray of the ute...

I missed the part where Gregory McMichael tried to kill anyone.


vikorr wrote:
turns to find the younger perpertrator who had gotten out of the passenger seat while the victim was running on the drivers side (and so is unlikely to have seen the killer getting out of the passenger seat, or realise that his killer was going to be standing there when he, the victim, turned left around the front of the car). The victim is shot within a split second of rounding the vehicle - this is indisputably evidenced on the video. It is again, likely in turning left, that the victim didn't even know his killer was going to be there.

Travis McMichael was visible long before the jogger tried to pass the truck, and would have been easily visible as soon as the jogger got past the cab of the truck.


vikorr wrote:
There is clear space between the two when the first shot rings out.

A clear space that was rapidly closing as he charged toward Travis McMichael.


vikorr wrote:
Seems like a wild stab in the dark to me by you.

No wilder than your own guess about the order of the shots.


vikorr wrote:
Three shots, three wounds - two to the chest.

Two to the chest because the jogger doesn't break off his attack until after he sustains a second shotgun blast to the chest.


vikorr wrote:
ROFL. Hence why the victim tried both to zig zagged + stayed close to the vehicle so the perpetrator on the back of the vehicle (minimised the perps ability to shoot the victim from the back of the ute). Your explanation makes little sense by itself, but perfect sense if McMichael Snr was armed, pointing a gun at the victim.

Again, there is no evidence that Gregory McMichael was pointing a gun at him.


vikorr wrote:
The video does not show this. The video is too far away, and without sound to support your supposition. These nutbags might have said "stop right there, I want to talk to you", but your claim doesn't hold up - the grainy, almost soundless video is unable to show that.

The video certainly doesn't show them detaining the jogger.


vikorr wrote:
Everything about your interpretation of how this went down speaks of your supporting one races 'claims' over anothers (rather than looking at the whole picture for what it is).... despite obvious problems with your versions (which makes such support worse).

The picture shows the jogger charging at Travis McMichael and not breaking off his attack until he receives a second shotgun blast to the chest.

I see no problem with this narrative.


vikorr wrote:
What we do know, is the black victim was innocently going about this jog when he was hunted down by a group of white people and killed.

Killed when he charged at someone and tried to wrestle their shotgun away from them.


vikorr wrote:
What we know is the McMichaels apear to have then made dodgy excuses in the aftermath.

Really? I haven't heard anything that has come from Travis and Gregory McMichael or their defense lawyers.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:29 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
racists never think their racist posts indicate they're racist.

You sure look goofy when you falsely accuse everyone of racism.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:30 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
...probably by someone he didn't even see before he was shot (as Jnr was in the passenger seat with door closed when the victim started running to the right of the Ute, and avoiding Snr would have consumed his attention)

Travis McMichael was out of the truck and clearly visible to the jogger long before he even started going around the truck.

Travis McMichael would have been plainly visible as soon as the jogger got past the cab of the truck.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:34 pm
@Baldimo,
No, you are claearly in your usual fantasy land. 90,000 deaths ago, trump's first interest was in politicizing it, trying to cast himself as the innocent vitimk of a Democratic hozx. What an idiot. He's lied about numbers, about testing, about things that might help, and impeded any federal disaster relief. People are still dying so he can increase his chances for reelection. Openong up looks like it's gonna spike the numbers u[ again, but he just doesn't care. And neither do you, and that's a disgrace.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:35 pm
@MontereyJack,
Actually the reason for all these deaths is because the Democrats disrupted the government with a sham impeachment for the entire first month of the pandemic.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:39 pm
@oralloy,
By no means everyone, just people who make racist posts. Which they never think are racist.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:41 pm
@MontereyJack,
You cannot point out any racism in my posts. Neither can you point out any racism in the posts of anyone else who you accuse of racism.
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:43 pm
@oralloy,
He's just out for some exercise. He's chased and confronted by someone menacing his with a shotgun, while he's unarmed. He has every constitutional reason to defend himself from what is obviously a perceived deadly threat.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:44 pm
@MontereyJack,
People do not have any right to attack people for holding a shotgun and saying they want to ask some questions.

Had that jogger lived he'd be in jail right now awaiting trial for battery, and for manslaughter had he actually killed someone.
vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:52 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
No wilder than your own guess about the order of the shots.
The difference is that I phrased my conclusions according to the likelihood of it being correct.

Same goes for the reason 'why' the victim was zig zagging and running close to the car - that behaviour only makes sense if his life was being threatened. With Jnr on the left, the victim going to the right makes even more sense.

Quote:
The picture shows the jogger charging at Travis McMichael and not breaking off his attack until he receives a second shotgun blast to the chest.

I see no problem with this narrative.
Which wrestle over the shotgun of course isn't in dispute. The difference is in perspectives of the leadup to that wrestle - you call an innocent black man being bailed up by firearm wielding thugs as the attacker "charging and attacking"...while I call him the black man a victim who tried to defend his own life by trying to get the firearm off his killer (and as I said previously - I completely understand anyone in his circumstance trying to do this)

You haven't criticised the killers idiotic decision making as far as I know. But you have condemned the black man trying to defend his life (using the words 'charging' and 'attacking'). In this matter, Defending and attacking may be two sides of the same coin, but which word one chooses to use illustrates the views of the user.

Quote:
Really? I haven't heard anything that has come from Travis and Gregory McMichael or their defense lawyers.
They provided statements to the police. Any even moderate following of the case reveals this.

By the way - thank you for the correction on Jnr standing beside the vehicle - it is really difficult to see until you look for the black shape of the door (the vehicle itself being white) on the darkish background. The victims zig zag and running to the right of the vehicle makes even more sense now.
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:54 pm
@oralloy,
You have no evidence forof any conversation in the confrontation. By your own interpretation of the constitution Awbrey had every right to self defense to ttry to get the threat to himself removed. /sineone earlier ub this thread cited Georgia law to the effect that brandishing a weapon is a felony, so the son was clearly guilty just by his armed presence. it was murder.
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 10:57 pm
@oralloy,
false.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 11:37 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
You have no evidence forof any conversation in the confrontation. By your own interpretation of the constitution Awbrey had every right to self defense to try to get the threat to himself removed.

That is incorrect. People don't have the right to attack people for merely holding a shotgun.


MontereyJack wrote:
/sineone earlier ub this thread cited Georgia law to the effect that brandishing a weapon is a felony, so the son was clearly guilty just by his armed presence.

That is a loophole in Georgia law, and that loophole is being closed.


MontereyJack wrote:
it was murder.

That is incorrect. Under Georgia law, deaths connected to a misdemeanor are involuntary manslaughter.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2020 11:39 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
The difference is that I phrased my conclusions according to the likelihood of it being correct.

I don't think the order can be conclusively determined from the video alone, and it may not be possible to determine period.

I'm also unsure why it matters what order the shots were fired in. I almost didn't address the matter when you first brought it up because if I address too much trivia it can drown out my more substantive points.

The reason why I figure the middle shot is the one that grazed the wrist is because, even though the shooting occurs off screen, you can see a puff of smoke from the blast travel in front of the camera view. Had the blast ended in the jogger's chest, I do not believe that we would see that puff of smoke travel in front of the view of the camera.


vikorr wrote:
Same goes for the reason 'why' the victim was zig zagging and running close to the car - that behaviour only makes sense if his life was being threatened. With Jnr on the left, the victim going to the right makes even more sense.

He may well have felt threatened, but that doesn't mean that Gregory McMichael was pointing a gun at him.


vikorr wrote:
Which wrestle over the shotgun of course isn't in dispute. The difference is in perspectives of the leadup to that wrestle - you call an innocent black man being bailed up by firearm wielding thugs as the attacker "charging and attacking"...while I call him the black man a victim who tried to defend his own life by trying to get the firearm off his killer (and as I said previously - I completely understand anyone in his circumstance trying to do this)

Both perspectives are correct.


vikorr wrote:
You haven't criticised the killers idiotic decision making as far as I know.

I've said that they committed a misdemeanor by chasing down and confronting a jogger in the middle of the street with a shotgun, and I've said that manslaughter charges are appropriate for the resulting death.


vikorr wrote:
But you have condemned the black man trying to defend his life (using the words 'charging' and 'attacking'). In this matter, Defending and attacking may be two sides of the same coin, but which word one chooses to use illustrates the views of the user.

Well he did attack Travis McMichael.


vikorr wrote:
They provided statements to the police. Any even moderate following of the case reveals this.

Are these statements available to the public?


vikorr wrote:
By the way - thank you for the correction on Jnr standing beside the vehicle - it is really difficult to see until you look for the black shape of the door (the vehicle itself being white) on the darkish background. The victims zig zag and running to the right of the vehicle makes even more sense now.

You're welcome.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
GAFFNEY: Whose side is Obama on? - Discussion by gungasnake
 
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.08 seconds on 05/24/2020 at 07:23:20