57
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 09:00 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Wrong again. Everything that I said is completely true. That's why you couldn't actually point out any errors.
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 09:02 am
@oralloy,
Read it again. BTW, what facts have you stated????????? Just your usual opinions.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 09:22 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:
Read it again.

No need.


bobsal u1553115 wrote:
BTW, what facts have you stated?????????

I pointed out the fact that "people owning their own guns" allows them to be armed when showing up for militia duty.

I pointed out the fact that your comment about "any kind of firearm" wasn't right. I think I missed the point by talking about Heller and Strict Scrutiny though. Under the Second Amendment as originally conceived, the reason why your comment about "any kind of firearm" is wrong is because the Second Amendment deals specifically with modern infantry weapons.

I pointed out the fact that armories are only for government-owned weapons in a system where people have the right to own weapons privately.

I pointed out the fact that people have the right to keep their weapons at home.

I pointed out the fact that people still need to protect themselves from criminals and dangerous animals.

I pointed out the fact that the existence of rights does not depend on need.


bobsal u1553115 wrote:
Just your usual opinions.

That is incorrect. I did not state any opinions.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 09:34 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Again, it doesn't work that way.
Your understanding of compelling government interest and strict scritiny to which it applies and other forms of scrutiny is severely confused.

No confusion. I am specifically applying strict scrutiny, as that is the proper standard to use when dealing with a fundamental right.


Confusion indeed. It hasn't been established that the Second Amendment was written in order to protect a private right of armed self defense.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Your statement is irrelevant to the fact that the Supreme Court has refused to endorse the application of strict scrutiny to gun regulations.

The Supreme Court has not made any such refusal. It is true that they have not officially imposed strict scrutiny yet, but "not having done it yet" is not a refusal to do so.


That's merely your play on words. Seeing as how you cannot foretell the future, the Supreme Court has refused to endorse the application of strict scrutiny to gun regulations.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
What's your source for these claims of yours?

McDonald v. City of Chicago (2010)
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf

Four votes for "due process" incorporation, plus a vote by Thomas for "privileges or immunities" incorporation.


Exactly, they didn't establish that the Second Amendment was written in order to protect a private right of armed self defense.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Your take on Heller is severely flawed. The Court declared that it based its decision on United States v. Miller which ties ownership of weapons to "a well regulated militia."

Held:
1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.


http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf


That's right. I was looking at Parker v. District of Columbia. In Heller, Scalia broke with precedent, separated the militia with individual firearm possession, and muddled individual right to possess a firearm with restrictions of those firearms in regard to the militia.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Your idea of Militiamen, in regard to the Second Amendment, is severely flawed.

No such flaws. The Second Amendment protects the right of militiamen to have modern infantry weapons so that they can be an effective fighting force.


Flawed indeed. Heller, in its sweeping reversal of precedent to separate a well regulated militia with individual right to posses a firearm, rationalized the virtual banning of automatic weapons, "machine guns," in regard to the militia.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
You're confusing your RPG play with the real world.

That is incorrect. An 84mm anti-tank bazooka would be devastating against personal body armor.


Your skirting of the point doesn't make you any less confused.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 09:35 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Strict Scrutiny is the correct standard to apply when dealing with a fundamental right.


It doesn't apply to the Second Amendment.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 09:37 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

That is incorrect. Strict Scrutiny is the correct standard to apply when dealing with a fundamental right.


Repeating a falsehood doesn't make the falsehood any less false.
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 09:56 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Strict Scrutiny is the standard that is used when dealing with fundamental rights.

Circular reasoning doesn't make your claim factual.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 10:23 am
@InfraBlue,
I did not use circular reasoning. I merely stated a fact.

Facts are naturally true of their own accord, and do not need to be "made" factual.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 10:24 am
@InfraBlue,
I did not state any falsehoods. Everything that I've said here is true.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 10:25 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
It doesn't apply to the Second Amendment.

That is incorrect. Strict Scrutiny is the proper standard to apply when dealing with fundamental rights.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 10:27 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Confusion indeed.

I have not confused Strict Scrutiny with any other standard. I am merely referring directly to Strict Scrutiny alone.


InfraBlue wrote:
It hasn't been established that the Second Amendment was written in order to protect a private right of armed self defense.

Well, this is the first time that you've brought it up.

The Second Amendment was written to protect the right to keep and bear arms. Here are some past court cases that establish that the right to keep and bear arms includes private self defense:

Rex v. Gardner (1739): "And they do not extend to prohibit a man from keeping a gun for his necessary defence, but only from making that forbidden use of it. And the word 'gun' being purposely omitted in this act, the defendant is not within the penalty."

Mallock v. Eastley (1744): "the mere having a gun was no offense within the game laws, for a man may keep a gun for the defence of his house and family."

Wingfield v. Stratford (1752): "It is not to be imagined, that it was the Intention of the Legislature, in making the 5 Ann.c.14 to disarm all the People of England. As Greyhounds, Setting Dogs ... are expressly mentioned in that Statute, it is never necessary to alledge, that any of these have been used for killing or destroying the Game; and the rather, as they can scarcely be kept for any other Purpose than to kill or destroy the Game. But as Guns are not expressly mentioned in that Statute, and as a Gun may be kept for the Defence of a Man's House, and for divers other lawful Purposes, it was necessary to alledge, in order to its being comprehended within the Meaning of the Words 'any other Engines to kill the Game', that the Gun had been used for killing the Game."


InfraBlue wrote:
That's merely your play on words. Seeing as how you cannot foretell the future, the Supreme Court has refused to endorse the application of strict scrutiny to gun regulations.

That is incorrect. "Not yet having addressed an issue" is not "a refusal to take a given position".


InfraBlue wrote:
Exactly, they didn't establish that the Second Amendment was written in order to protect a private right of armed self defense.

I never said that the McDonald ruling established that. Heller was the ruling that established that.

One of the things that the McDonald ruling did was cast four votes for Strict Scrutiny, with Thomas not being the fifth vote only because he was taking an even more hard line position.


InfraBlue wrote:
Flawed indeed. Heller, in its sweeping reversal of precedent to separate a well regulated militia with individual right to posses a firearm, rationalized the virtual banning of automatic weapons, "machine guns," in regard to the militia.

Heller rationalized the virtual banning of machine guns for private citizens. Heller did not even address the rights of people who are serving in a state militia. There are no flaws in my statements regarding the rights of militiamen.


InfraBlue wrote:
Your skirting of the point doesn't make you any less confused.

I did not skirt any point; I always address points head on. Nor am I confused about anything.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  5  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 12:50 pm
I have to agree with Ollie. He doesn't use circular reasoning. He doesn't reason at all. Just posts other peoples opinions as his own.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 12:53 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:
He doesn't reason at all.

Your inability to point out any flaws in my logic speaks for itself.


RABEL222 wrote:
Just posts other peoples opinions as his own.

You cannot provide any examples of me having ever done such a thing.
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 01:22 pm
@oralloy,
Calling it logic is kinda overstating the case
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 03:15 pm
@MontereyJack,
Your failure to point out any flaws in my logic speaks for itself.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 06:23 pm
There was an interesting gun control interview on the PBS NewsHour tonight.

There wasn't a single deranged demand to violate people's civil liberties for fun.

It was refreshing.

farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 06:41 pm
@oralloy,
very well thought out.The conclusion was the same, more bullets at faster rate kills more people. 100 round canisters is as insane as bump stocks.
Nobody even brought up ppistol grips , the guy from Gifford foused on high cap mags, period. So we agree on that?
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 06:42 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
There wasn't a single deranged demand to violate people's civil liberties for fun.


You have trouble understanding road signs?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 06:46 pm
@farmerman,
No trouble. Why, was there something from the interview that I missed?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2019 06:47 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
the guy from Gifford foused on high cap mags, period. So we agree on that?

That depends.

Right now I'm pissed off and not in the mood to support any gun laws.

But when I'm in the mood to compromise, I'm willing to contemplate putting large capacity magazines under the National Firearms Act.
 

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