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Welcome Sports Haters!

 
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 04:21 pm
@panzade,
I previously made an attempt to respond, but I lost my post for some reason. I have no idea what happened.

I respectfully disagree. I had pointed out that sports sometimes is used as a false standard of masculinity to stigmatize and even mistreat nonathletic boys. Here are just two examples of what I'm talking about: At another website I read a post from a high-school football player who said that most of his teammates routinely referred to nonathletic classmates as "fags." I guess they never heard of Esera Tuaolo or Brian Sims, not to mention others. When I was 15 years old, an incompetent psychologist sent me to a white judo instructor who had played football at a university. When I was 26, this guy told me that he had "saved (me) from homosexuality," despite the fact that I've never had any inclination in that direction. When he first met me, I was a physically weak boy who had no self-confidence and liked to read books about wildlife. So, he subjected me to a negative stereotype. I just had to be gay; right? He also viewed only athletes in certain sports and men in certain blue-collar vocations as "real men." All other men really weren't real men. He even denigrated Dr. Andrei Sakharov, the "father of the Soviet H-bomb" who became a leading human rights activist, (despite his great courage) simply because he apparently wasn't an athlete. I was citing Wallenberg as a nonathlete who was very manly, indeed. If he had been born and raised in the United States, he would have been regarded as a sissy for not liking sports. If his spirit had been broken, what would have happened to those thousands of Jews? There are other examples of nonathletic men who have shown great courage, and are not wimps because they don't like sports. So, I think my comments about Wallenberg were very pertinent.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 04:27 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

Because Raoul "detested" competing in sport doesn't mean he was a sports hater Didn't we establish the difference?


Well, I don't believe anyone who has so far posted in this thread has actually said the "hated" sports. If they did, I don't think they meant it in the way that one would hate getting their left eye scooped out with a spoon.

Are we not allowed to post about or on this thread unless one either actively hates, or has knowledge that the person they are talking about actively hates sports?

The title of this thread has been unfortunate from the start. In fact, I hate the title of this thread.

Why does everything have to always come down to this stupid spliting of hairs?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 04:34 pm
@chai2,
Quote:
Why does everything have to always come down to this stupid spliting of hairs?


It's a sign of a moribund megalopolitan civilisation substituting discussion for culture.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 04:36 pm
Chai wrote:
spliting of hairs?


I'd prefer to use terms like tetratrichotomy or quadricapillosection...

It's one of my favorite sports.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 04:36 pm
@panzade,
I respectfully disagree. I was pointing out that sometimes sports is used as a false standard of masculinity to denigrate and even mistreat (bully) nonathletic boys. Here are just two examples of what I'm talking about. At another website I read a post from a high-school football player who said that most of his teammates routinely referred to nonathletic boys in their classes as "fags." I guess they never heard of Esera Tuaolo and Brian Sims, not to mention others. When I was 15 years old, an incompetent psychologist sent me to a white judo instructor who had played football at a university. When I was 26, this guy told me that he had "saved (me) from homosexuality," despite the fact that I had never had any inclination in that direction. He also informed me that only athletes and men in certain blue-collar vocations were "real men." All other men were less manly. He even denigrated Dr. Andrei Sakharov, the "father of the Soviet H-bomb" who became a leading human rights activist, (despite his great courage) simply because he apparently wasn't an athlete. I was pointing to Wallenberg as an example of a nonathlete who was manly, indeed. If he had been born and raised in the United States, he would have been ridiculed as a "sissy" for not liking sports. If his spirit had been broken when he was a kid, what would have happened to those thousands of Hungarian Jews? And there are many other examples of men who do not deserve to be called "feminized males" simply because they've never had an interest in sports. So, I'd say that my comments about Wallenberg were actually quite pertinent.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 04:38 pm
@wmwcjr,
I'm sorry this happened to you and I can see how it would affect your take on sports.
I'll think about it and get back to it on Monday.
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 04:42 pm
@wmwcjr,
Sorry for the goof-up, folks! :-) I'm still relatively new at this.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 04:45 pm
@panzade,
Thank you.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 06:30 pm
@aidan,
As to government interventionism consider (as a starting point) the revenue losses from the tax exempt status of so-called "recognized religions" and consider the taxpayer costs of the 2010 winter olympics right in my backyard.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 06:45 pm
Hello wmwcjr,

As the initiator of this thread I thank you very much for your thoughtful posts. You are quite right that there is prejudice and persecution against those that do not condone organized sports as foisted upon us by the government, the media, and the educational system.

Organized sports as foisted upon us by the government, the media, and the educational system is (as has been said before many times) absolutely not necessary for physical and/or mental heath.

Belief that organized sports as foisted upon us by the government, the media, and the educational system are a requisite for physical and/or mental health simply creates any number of logical fallacies.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 06:51 pm
@Chumly,
Come on Chum. There's millions of ££££ at stake. Bollocks to fallacies logical or otherwise.
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 08:12 pm
@wmwcjr,
Things have come a long way about fears of homosexuality with athletes and even this week the NFL made a stand against players making slurs against gays. In fact not only was a star halfback released for making anti gay slurs on twitter but not a single other NFL team picked the man up on waivers, indicating a sport-wide rejection of his behavior.......all the while a guy who killed dogs without mercy has a million dollar contract with the Philadelphia Eagles.

so dog killers are acceptable but using sexual preference slurs cause economic banishment.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/09/larry-johnson-released-ch_n_350758.html
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 09:02 pm
@kuvasz,
We live in a strange world.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 10:27 pm
@spendius,
Money talks.

On another note it's unfortunate (from a humor value if nothing else) that human organizations lack the foresight to be functionally conspiratorial over any consequential time period.

Is BBOSSS (Big Brother Organized Sports Secret Society) controlling mankind's primal competitive drives for their own subversive goals?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 10:33 pm
@kuvasz,
kuvasz wrote:

Things have come a long way about fears of homosexuality with athletes and even this week the NFL made a stand against players making slurs against gays.



Does it suggest anything that the NFL felt a need to "make a stand"?
0 Replies
 
Always Eleven to him
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 10:55 pm
@Ceili,
Quote:
Yeah--hippies don't go ski-ing. And golf--ye Gods.


Glad to see I'm not the only hippie who plays golf and skis.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 02:01 am
@panzade,
I've just read your profile. You've had an interesting, full life.
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 05:53 am
@Chumly,
Thanks for your kind words.

Before I continue, let me say that my intention is not to deny how some guys benefit from their involvement in sports; and I have no problem with people watching sporting events. I have absolutely no quarrel about that. The comments I’m about to make have nothing to do with your concerns or the joys you find in sports. So, please don’t take what I’m about to say personally.

Traditional sports-centered P.E., which was imposed upon all public school students of the “Baby Boom” generation (thanks to the Kennedy administration), frequently was the bane of existence for nonathletic boys, especially those who were physically weak or overweight. The claim was made that the purpose of mandatory P.E. was to promote physical fitness for all students, but the sad reality is that promoting sports is not the same as promoting physical fitness. I’m not exaggerating when I say that in all the P.E. classes I was forced to take, the assumption seems to have been made that all boys were athletes. No mention was ever made of exercise programs for those boys who were physically weak or overweight. I didn’t even know what an exercise program was, and I certainly never heard about them in any of my P.E. classes. In gym classes beginning in junior high, I never even heard about bodybuilding, which would have been great for me and would have made me more self-confident than anything else. I never even so much as laid eyes on a set of weights in any of my junior-high P.E. classes. (Thankfully, since I was a band student, I didn’t have to take P.E. in high school, which I heard was even more hellish for physically weak and overweight boys than the junior-high P.E.) In none of my P.E. classes was any effort made to teach nonathletic boys how to develop the skills needed in different sports. Instead, they were ignored or viewed with contempt. There was Remedial Math and Remedial English, but no Remedial P.E. The very suggestion evokes chuckles. As a health club member who has worked with personal trainers on a bodybuilding program, I know the difference between an effective exercise program and the sort of P.E. of my childhood that was useless to nonathletic kids. I actually got very little exercise from mandatory P.E.; but I did experience a great deal of dread, humiliation, and sadness. The claim that the mandatory sports-centered P.E. of my generation promoted physical fitness for the nonathletic kids was a bold-faced lie. Before you get mad at me, let me remind you that (as Dave Barry says in his humorous columns) I’m not making this up. This was my experience.

Over the years as a middle-aged guy, I’ve heard some real horror stories from other guys of my generation. Because of a knee injury he received in a car wreck at the age of 4, one friend of mine could not run, and could only walk with a limp. Another friend of mine was born with an eye defect; he lacked depth perception. Despite the fact that they had physical disabilities, they were forced to take P.E. anyway, which defies common sense. They should have been exempted from having to take P.E. (By the way, these two injustices took place in different states, which seems to indicate that this mindless practice was universal.) Both of them were bullied by “jocks” who lacked the common decency to give them a pass on something that they had no control over and was not their fault. Interestingly enough, the only fellow students who bullied my friends at their schools were “jocks.” None of the coaches cared to stop the bullying. When my friend who lacked depth perception finally struck back at one of his tormentors (and, incidentally, cleaned his clock), the coach punished my friend the victim instead of the perpetrator, who happened to be an athlete. This suffering could have easily been prevented by not making P.E. mandatory. The athletic kids still would have had the P.E. they wanted to take and enjoyed, and the nonathletic kids would have been left alone. And I wouldn’t be writing this now. Neither of these two friends of mine are sports fans today. I think you can understand why.

I even know of an instance when a star athlete was actually physically beaten by one of his coaches. I’m referring to a friend of mine who played football in high school before he played at a university. (Today he’s a college sociology professor, and refers to this time in the history of American P.E. as “the dinosaur age.”) He once told me of this coach who constantly harassed him to the point of making his life miserable. Finally, my friend had had enough one day and punched him in the nose. This gave the coach the pretext that he had been looking for all along to subject him to a beating.

I could go on and on. Fortunately, today there is a movement to reform P.E. so that physical fitness will actually be promoted for those students who need fitness programs badly. Forcing nonathletic boys to participate in competitive team sports is like putting the cart before the horse. The quickest and most efficient way for a physically inactive person to get into shape is by getting and staying on an exercise program, not by playing sports. The traditional sports-centered approach ignores the fact that different kids have different physical fitness needs. For example, a boy who is obese needs to do exercise that involves constant movement. Forcing him to play baseball, for example, is utterly pointless and useless. (And, no, I’m not denigrating the sport of baseball, please.) Not only doesn’t he get the exercise he needs; but his presence on the team is deeply resented by his teammates, who make his life miserable and discourage him from being physically active. (No, I was not obese when I was a kid.)

I’m convinced that historically more bullying has taken place in mandatory traditional sports-centered P.E. than in all the academic classes combined since this approach actually creates friction and antagonism between athletic and nonathletic kids. When the innovative PE4Life program (which dispenses with competitive team sports for nonathletic kids and even puts physical fitness demands on the athletic kids, who are not always as fit as they think) was set up in the Titusville, Pennsylvania, school district, bullying actually went down, which was an unforeseen consequence of this program. Instead of hanging out in their separate groups, the “jocks” and the “techies” (nerds) actually started socializing with one another.

Just so I’m not misunderstood, I favor the traditional sports-centered P.E. classes as an elective for the athletic kids and those who simply want to participate in sports. The much-emphasized football program will still be successful, since those kids who want to play football don’t need to be forced to take P.E. If honest-to-goodness physical fitness classes are not to be made available for nonathletic students, then they should not have sports forced upon them against their will, which is unjustified and unproductive.

Please notice the reason why I have gone to the trouble of writing this very long post. This topic is entitled “Welcome Sports Haters,” which means that those who want to critically examine the role of sports culture in the lives of nonathletes should be able to do so. The sports fans have plenty of topics and websites to choose from. I wouldn’t bother posting these views at a sports website, because it would be pointless. I know this has been a long post, but I had to get my points across. I shouldn’t have to say this, but I have not knocked anyone’s involvement in sports. That’s not the point.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 10:30 am
You know, you're right.

It should be the sports LOVERS who should be avoiding this thread.

Yet, they are the ones being total A-holes, engaging in name calling, telling people who don't care for sports there is something wrong with them. Sounds kinda like real life experience some who've posted here, have already said they've had.

Why are any sports lovers even here? This isn't called Welcome Sports Lovers. If it were, you would not have more than the very occassional post by someone other than a sports lover, if at all.

So.....sports lovers get to hang out on threads that talk about sports, AND they get to distrupt a thread that wasn't meant for them.

Sounds reasonable to me....not.
Chumly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 10:35 am
@wmwcjr,
I was and am very able physically.

I climbed trees like a cat and could travel distances through thick woods better than most. I waded through streams, swam in the river and ocean, built tree forts, rode mini-bikes up the mountain right to the snow line. I love woodwork, metal work, electronics, mechanics, the sciences etc

I never thought of it as "healthy" or that I must "exercise", I simply just did what I enjoyed.

I did not need nor want "coaching", "supervision", "guidance" , "game rules", government interventionism or public school overseeing.

I was an active and even aggressive kid but I had no interest in either elementary school or high school competitive sports both of which were mandatory despite the fact that I was involved in music throughout my school years as I took Royal Conservatory piano, woodwinds guitar and vocals etc.

In sum I have always been in great shape and today still go swimming, running, hiking, canoing and still very active in music, electronics, mechanics and the sciences.
 

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