Obama..... not religious?

I just don't see religion as inherently evil.

There seems to be an element of the convert here

You cannot be arrested for being stupid.

Grow a brain, then try again.

You are way out of your league here.

I suppose being unpleasant as possible is one way to end a debate, but it certainly does not win a debate.

TTFN.

Again, I am not personally religious. (I know you know this, but it seems to keep getting lost here.)The fact that I just don't believe this stuff -- that I don't find it rational -- is part of why I'm not religious.

Mostly, I think it's obnoxious to tell people what they should or shouldn't do in the privacy of their own brains.

That leaves, what is so bad about churches that we should care that people attend them? There are some obvious things, like the sexual abuse tragedy -- I definitely am all for such problems being addressed and eradicated. But are all churches so bad?

The "some churches have done some bad things so nobody should attend church" argument is profoundly unconvincing (and sophomoric).

Some schools have done bad things -- should we tell all people who want to educate their children that they are deluded?

I, personally, am comfortable saying that what I have seen of churches -- to bring it back somewhat more on topic, most of these churches were liberal, activist churches, which accomplished a lot of good both in the larger community (food pantries, clothing for homeless, aid for refugees, etc.) and within the church community (providing concrete help and moral support during bad times, child care, etc.) -- has convinced me that whatever algorithm is applied, there is too much good about churches for me to wish them out of existence. And I don't think faith is in and of itself a bad thing. Which leaves me unconcerned about whether other people want to believe in their own god or not.

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That leaves, what is so bad about churches that we should care that people attend them? There are some obvious things, like the sexual abuse tragedy -- I definitely am all for such problems being addressed and eradicated. But are all churches so bad?

The "some churches have done some bad things so nobody should attend church" argument is profoundly unconvincing (and sophomoric).

I think so, too. So why are you doing it??? I would certainly never suggest that.

Quote:

Some schools have done bad things -- should we tell all people who want to educate their children that they are deluded?

Terrible example. But a better question would be...should we simply ignore the “bad things”--or pretend that the “bad things” are really good things?

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I, personally, am comfortable saying that what I have seen of churches -- to bring it back somewhat more on topic, most of these churches were liberal, activist churches, which accomplished a lot of good both in the larger community (food pantries, clothing for homeless, aid for refugees, etc.) and within the church community (providing concrete help and moral support during bad times, child care, etc.) -- has convinced me that whatever algorithm is applied, there is too much good about churches for me to wish them out of existence. And I don't think faith is in and of itself a bad thing. Which leaves me unconcerned about whether other people want to believe in their own god or not.

That is a very interesting and well-articulated position to take, Sozobe.

Are you suggesting that anyone taking a different position should be silenced?

That one I liked!

We've gotten along golden in the past, Sozobe...I hope this thread doesn't pose a strain!

DrewDad invited me to do the drunken sailor bit...and I am just obliging. I'm that kinda guy.

However, I think that's kind of beside the point for people who are in fact religious. And I don't think THAT's inherently bad. I think you do.

Mostly, I think it's obnoxious to tell people what they should or shouldn't do in the privacy of their own brains.

Or do you find it obnoxious when I tell people that homeopathy and astrology don't work?

But does religion not work?

For most of the people I know, it does.

But does religion not work?

But if you mean the culture and community experience religion brings, then I agree it works people.