BUSH IS GONE!

Brandon, the story changed when they didn't find the WMD. That's the inconsistency. Then, it became all about 'spreading democracy.' B/c they couldn't admit that they fucked up, Saddam had no real WMD, and they had made a terrible mistake, costing the country thousands of lives and probably a trillion dollars.

Why are you forcing me to explain the obvious to you? You know how the Bush crew wavered in their explanations and story about the invasion.

Cycloptichorn

We are in Iraq today because our goal has always been more than the removal of a brutal dictator. It is to leave a free and democratic Iraq in its place.

As I stated in a speech in the lead-up to the war, a liberated Iraq has showed the power of freedom to transform the Middle East by bringing hope and progress to the lives of millions. So we are helping the Iraqi people build a lasting democracy that is peaceful and prosperous, and an example for the broader Middle East.

The terrorists understand this. And that is why they have now made Iraq the central front in the war on terror.

I think Bush invaded Iraq because Saddam Hussein made daddy look bad.

He asked for lousy intelligence so that he could justify the invasion...and now tries to blame lousy intelligence as the reason for why he invaded.

There always was the problem of lousy intelligence in the Oval Office while Bush was there. It was centered in the brain of the guy sitting in the chair behind the desk near the windows.

Wow.. So you are calling Bush a liar then?

Quote:

We are in Iraq today because our goal has always been more than the removal of a brutal dictator. It is to leave a free and democratic Iraq in its place.

As I stated in a speech in the lead-up to the war, a liberated Iraq has showed the power of freedom to transform the Middle East by bringing hope and progress to the lives of millions. So we are helping the Iraqi people build a lasting democracy that is peaceful and prosperous, and an example for the broader Middle East.

The terrorists understand this. And that is why they have now made Iraq the central front in the war on terror.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/14/bush.transcript/

He did not invade Iraq to spread democracy, even if he made reference later to spreading democracy.

The current Iraqi regime has shown the power of tyranny to spread discord and violence in the Middle East. A liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region, by bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions. America's interests in security, and America's belief in liberty, both lead in the same direction: to a free and peaceful Iraq. (Applause.)

The first to benefit from a free Iraq would be the Iraqi people, themselves. Today they live in scarcity and fear, under a dictator who has brought them nothing but war, and misery, and torture. Their lives and their freedom matter little to Saddam Hussein -- but Iraqi lives and freedom matter greatly to us. (Applause.)

Bringing stability and unity to a free Iraq will not be easy. Yet that is no excuse to leave the Iraqi regime's torture chambers and poison labs in operation. Any future the Iraqi people choose for themselves will be better than the nightmare world that Saddam Hussein has chosen for them. (Applause.)

If we must use force, the United States and our coalition stand ready to help the citizens of a liberated Iraq. We will deliver medicine to the sick, and we are now moving into place nearly 3 million emergency rations to feed the hungry.

[...]

The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of a desire for freedom in the Middle East. Arab intellectuals have called on Arab governments to address the "freedom gap" so their peoples can fully share in the progress of our times. Leaders in the region speak of a new Arab charter that champions internal reform, greater politics participation, economic openness, and free trade. And from Morocco to Bahrain and beyond, nations are taking genuine steps toward politics reform. A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region. (Applause.)

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon, the story changed when they didn't find the WMD. That's the inconsistency. Then, it became all about 'spreading democracy.' B/c they couldn't admit that they fucked up, Saddam had no real WMD, and they had made a terrible mistake, costing the country thousands of lives and probably a trillion dollars.

Why are you forcing me to explain the obvious to you? You know how the Bush crew wavered in their explanations and story about the invasion.

Cycloptichorn

President Bush consistently told the same story before the invasion and in the initial days of the invasion to justify it. He did not invade Iraq to spread democracy, even if he made reference later to spreading democracy. The idea that spreading democracy was the motivation is simply a falsehood, and if you disagree, you need only provide the quotation to back your opinion up, as I just have. He explained numerous times that it was a WMD disarmament issue.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon, the story changed when they didn't find the WMD. That's the inconsistency. Then, it became all about 'spreading democracy.' B/c they couldn't admit that they fucked up, Saddam had no real WMD, and they had made a terrible mistake, costing the country thousands of lives and probably a trillion dollars.

Why are you forcing me to explain the obvious to you? You know how the Bush crew wavered in their explanations and story about the invasion.

Cycloptichorn

President Bush consistently told the same story before the invasion and in the initial days of the invasion to justify it. He did not invade Iraq to spread democracy, even if he made reference later to spreading democracy. The idea that spreading democracy was the motivation is simply a falsehood, and if you disagree, you need only provide the quotation to back your opinion up, as I just have. He explained numerous times that it was a WMD disarmament issue.

You're being intentionally mendacious. I'm well aware that WMD was the lie used to sell the war before it started; but after that was revealed as a lie, the justifications shifted to 'freedom spreading' and the like.

The Conservative community still supports that rationale for invasion and uses bad logical constructions to back it up ("Oh, so you wish Saddam was still in power then, cheese-eating surrender monkey?"). If the modern Conservative movement would admit that their leaders made a big mistake, and we're still paying for that mistake, perhaps there would be some credibility and recognition that they were being truthful. Instead, they either focus on the 'other' reasons for attacking, or they - like you - pretend that the mistake was somehow not a mistake, even though our intelligence was completely wrong and our money seems mostly wasted.

Cycloptichorn

If you want to guess at his motives, be my guest. However, based on anything he actually said, the motive was the belief that Iraq was highly likely to be hiding WMD or WMD programs. Green Witch was incorrect.

Brandon9000 wrote:

He did not invade Iraq to spread democracy, even if he made reference later to spreading democracy.

President Bush, at the American Enterprise Institute's annual dinner on February 26, 2003:

Quote:

The current Iraqi regime has shown the power of tyranny to spread discord and violence in the Middle East. A liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region, by bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions. America's interests in security, and America's belief in liberty, both lead in the same direction: to a free and peaceful Iraq. (Applause.)

The first to benefit from a free Iraq would be the Iraqi people, themselves. Today they live in scarcity and fear, under a dictator who has brought them nothing but war, and misery, and torture. Their lives and their freedom matter little to Saddam Hussein -- but Iraqi lives and freedom matter greatly to us. (Applause.)

Bringing stability and unity to a free Iraq will not be easy. Yet that is no excuse to leave the Iraqi regime's torture chambers and poison labs in operation. Any future the Iraqi people choose for themselves will be better than the nightmare world that Saddam Hussein has chosen for them. (Applause.)

If we must use force, the United States and our coalition stand ready to help the citizens of a liberated Iraq. We will deliver medicine to the sick, and we are now moving into place nearly 3 million emergency rations to feed the hungry.

[...]

The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of a desire for freedom in the Middle East. Arab intellectuals have called on Arab governments to address the "freedom gap" so their peoples can fully share in the progress of our times. Leaders in the region speak of a new Arab charter that champions internal reform, greater politics participation, economic openness, and free trade. And from Morocco to Bahrain and beyond, nations are taking genuine steps toward politics reform. A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region. (Applause.)

I did read your post.

Bush said he made the statement in a speech prior to the invasion. If he didn't as you claim, then Bush is lying, is he not?

can you find one quotation, given either before the invasion or during the initial hours of the invasion, in which he states any reason but Iraq's destruction of WMD and WMD programs as the fundamental motive for the invasion? Specifically, can you find one in which he gives "spreading freedom" as the reason it should be done?

In the same speech he says:

"In Iraq, a dictator is building and hiding weapons that could enable him to dominate the Middle East and intimidate the civilized world, and we will not allow it."

He's certainly allowed to mention other fringe benefits, but WMD disarmament is the primary justification.

You will never win this argument, because you're wrong.

He did not invade Iraq to spread democracy, even if he made reference later to spreading democracy.

If I have to hold all of your heads in the toilet (figuratively) until you give up, then I will.

n which he states any reason but Iraq's destruction of WMD

Again, give me a link to a speech in which Bush gave anything other than WMD disarmament as the primary motive for the invasion before or in the initial days of the invasion.

Quote:

can you find one quotation, given either before the invasion or during the initial hours of the invasion, in which he states any reason but Iraq's destruction of WMD and WMD programs as the fundamental motive for the invasion? Specifically, can you find one in which he gives "spreading freedom" as the reason it should be done?

I guess finding one quotation doesn't count if you can hold our heads in the toilet.

Brandon9000 wrote:

In the same speech he says:

"In Iraq, a dictator is building and hiding weapons that could enable him to dominate the Middle East and intimidate the civilized world, and we will not allow it."

He's certainly allowed to mention other fringe benefits, but WMD disarmament is the primary justification.

I'm not denying that.

Brandon9000 wrote:

You will never win this argument, because you're wrong.

I'm wrong about what? That Bush cited "spreading democracy" as a goal of the invasion and occupation of Iraq, even before Iraq was actually invaded and occupied? I don't think so.


You, on the other hand, said that

Brandon9000 wrote:

He did not invade Iraq to spread democracy, even if he made reference later to spreading democracy.

Seems like you're calling Bush a liar.

Brandon9000 wrote:

If I have to hold all of your heads in the toilet (figuratively) until you give up, then I will.

Is that the conservative idea of having a debate, Brandon?

parados wrote:

Quote:

can you find one quotation, given either before the invasion or during the initial hours of the invasion, in which he states any reason but Iraq's destruction of WMD and WMD programs as the fundamental motive for the invasion? Specifically, can you find one in which he gives "spreading freedom" as the reason it should be done?

I guess finding one quotation doesn't count if you can hold our heads in the toilet.

Finding one from 2005 doesn't.