55
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
Foofie
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 09:55 am
@georgeob1,
I thought a state was offered to Arafat, but the pundits said that if he accepted he would be in danger? No? You seem to be siding with the popular belief that Jews are just "stiffed necked Hebrews"? That does allow a Gentile not to do the heavy ethical analysis that would bring out historical injustices to Jews in Europe.

Any mea culpas you allude to are drowned out with some fancy rhetoric, in my opinion.


oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 10:08 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
I thought a state was offered to Arafat,

Yes. And to Abbas after him.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 10:12 am
@Foofie,
If you are referring to 1967, you are incorrect. No such offer was made then. I generally don't "side with popular beliefs" and prefer to make my own judgments about things, but, as can be seen on this thread, the contending parties only rarely consider the whole story or put events in the right context.

I think it was Moses who referred to the Hebrews as "stiff necked", not me, though I have observed that a good many Jews do have that characteristic, along with a similar proportion of most other groups of people.

Injustice to others is a particularly human trait, and the absence or even shortage of it a rare event in human affairs.

oralloy thinks Palestinains are "vermin, and deserving of being treated as such". I wonder if he understands how much like Himmler he sounds.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 10:19 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
If you are referring to 1967, you are incorrect. No such offer was made then.

Perhaps he was referring to the entire 14 year period from 2001 to 2014.

Israel was offering to let the Palestinians have a state for that entire period.
McTag
 
  3  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 11:23 am
@Foofie,

Quote:
The British are so good at repartee. The sun doesn't set on repartee.


Irony. We were discussing facts.
I have a problem: do I believe and trust the BBC, the British heavy press and the many international observers on Israel, or do I trust Oralloy, with his version of the same events?

Let's see, now...
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 11:49 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
I have a problem: do I believe and trust the BBC, the British heavy press and the many international observers on Israel, or do I trust Oralloy, with his version of the same events?
Let's see, now...

"Many international observers on Israel" sounds like a euphemism for a pack of anti-Semitic liars. As such, no. Don't trust them at all.

As far as British newspapers go, the Guardian should be good. No one is infallible, but the Guardian is usually more reliable than even the Washington Post and New York Times. The rest of the British papers, not even a little bit trustworthy.


As for the BBC, I would be interested in hearing about it if they contradict me on any of my facts.

It will almost certainly turn out to be the BBC that is wrong (if there is truly a discrepancy between them and me), but it would be interesting to look into the matter.

Or were you just claiming that they contradict me without there being any actual contradiction?


EDIT: And actually, if you think you can challenge any of my facts with a reliable source, whether it is the BBC or not, speak up.

If you fail to ever challenge any of my facts, that is pretty good evidence that you have no challenge to make.
georgeob1
 
  4  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 11:50 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Israel was offering to let the Palestinians have a state for that entire period.


Only if you call a state something which comprised only about 40% of the former West Bank territory; had no external borders with any state except Israel; and had no air or water rights whatever. Only a serious cynic or gross hypocrite like yourself would call that a serious "offer".
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 12:36 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Only if you call a state something which comprised only about 40% of the former West Bank territory; had no external borders with any state except Israel; and had no air or water rights whatever. Only a serious cynic or gross hypocrite like yourself would call that a serious "offer".

I call it a series of outright falsehoods about what Israel offered.

It might reflect what Ariel Sharon was going to impose with unilateral separation, but it certainly doesn't reflect the negotiating positions of Ehud Barak, Ehud Olmert, and Benjamin Netanyahu.

I won't hold my breath waiting for you to show any occurrences of hypocrisy on my part.


Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians all of the Gaza strip, roughly 97% of the West Bank in one contiguous block, and East Jerusalem as their capital.

I suspect that had negotiations continued, the offer could have become 100% of the West Bank in a contiguous block (3% of the West Bank isn't a lot of land to argue over), but we'll never know what would have happened if the Palestinians hadn't collapsed the negotiations with a brutal series of horrendous murders.

The Palestinian state would have had external borders with Egypt and Jordan, and the Palestinians would have had sovereignty over their airspace.

Negotiators were still far apart on water rights when negotiations collapsed under a wave of Palestinian violence. Your characterization of that as Israel refusing to offer them water rights is absurd.


The offers from Ehud Olmert and Benjamin Netanyahu were substantially similar to the offer from Ehud Barak.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 12:43 pm
@Foofie,
You simple ass. I am ex military. I had brothers and sisters and I met some just about simple asses. I'm inclined to vote negative on the brother and sister option on you.

G#d bless the USA and G#d bless all the honorable veterans.

Israel still systematically appropriates land with the complicity of US foreign policy.

Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 02:53 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

You simple ass. I am ex military. I had brothers and sisters and I met some just about simple asses. I'm inclined to vote negative on the brother and sister option on you.

G#d bless the USA and G#d bless all the honorable veterans.

Israel still systematically appropriates land with the complicity of US foreign policy.




I'm really at a loss to understand the meaning of your post above. I don't know why you are bringing veterans into the thread? I'm a veteran from the Vietnam Era. Is there a reason you don't spell out the word God? I think Orthodox Jews don't spell out the word also?

I don't see Israel systematically appropriating land, since the land was obtained after the 1967 war, and it is too strategic to give back to Jordan. Since this land is under their hegemony, it makes sense to me to utilize the land for its best use, like in eminent domain.

Just my opinion, it has been estimated that if there had been no Holocaust, there would be 32 million Jews in the world today. However, there are 14 million today, and getting less with all the intermarriage with Christians, mainly. So, if those Orthodox Jewish settlers on the West Bank have 10 kids each, I applaud that effort. You know like a game warden telling fisherman that they have to throw back a fish into the lake, until the fish increase their numbers. Interesting how people treat fish with more concern then they do the people of the first monotheistic religion.

By the way, in the military, I met a good many people that were superior to me in intelligence, and other qualities/traits. This didn't bother me at all. I know my place in society. I especially was impressed with old line WASP's, whose families came here in the 17th or 18th century. So, since I defer to old line WASP's, with such veneration, how can I then treat other people equally? It would be trivializing the fact that the families of old line WASP's struggled for centuries to give us the lovely country we live in. I guess I internalized the social class system I discovered in my four years in the military.

McTag
 
  3  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 03:42 pm
@oralloy,

Quote:
a pack of anti-Semitic liars


There you are, in the first line. Works every time, like magic.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 04:36 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
There you are, in the first line. Works every time, like magic.

It is right and proper that anti-Semitic scum is denounced as such.

I notice that information about the supposed "BBC disagreement with my position" is not forthcoming.

As I expected. Oh well.

I've never played a warrior in World of Warcraft. I'm thinking of rolling a Panda Arms Warrior just to try something new. Can't think of a good name yet though.

I can never think of good names for my WOW characters.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 08:11 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Thats 65 years where they have not used nuclear weapons . It has probably prevented the Arabs from continuing their military attacks against Israel . Islam already has the bomb in a country called Pakistan . We will see how long that lasts without being used, probably in New York . Have the Jews ever attacked New York ?
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2015 08:13 pm
@izzythepush,
And if they died from starvation you would be the first idiot to accuse Israel of murder . Cant have it both ways .
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 01:46 am
Quote:
A Palestinian toddler has been burned to death in an arson attack by suspected Jewish settlers in a West Bank village, Israeli police say.

The 18-month-old boy was killed at the family home in Duma in the nighttime attack. His parents and four-year-old brother were injured.

The attackers apparently sprayed the word "revenge" in Hebrew on one of two homes which were firebombed.

Israel's prime minister called the attack "reprehensible and horrific".

"This is an act of terrorism in every respect. The State of Israel takes a strong line against terrorism regardless of the perpetrators," Benjamin Netanyahu said in a tweet.

However the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), which dominates the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, said it held the Israeli government "fully responsible for the brutal assassination" of the child, Ali Saad Dawabsha.

"This is a direct consequence of decades of impunity given by the Israeli government to settler terrorism," it said.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-33729281

Nothing will happen to the perpetrators of this crime, and this will happen again and again. This is always how incursions begin, by killing Palestinian children, and trying to provoke a response.
McTag
 
  4  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 01:50 am
@oralloy,

Quote:
I notice that information about the supposed "BBC disagreement with my position" is not forthcoming.


You must be joking. Oh I forgot, no sense of humour.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 04:25 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
You must be joking. Oh I forgot, no sense of humour.

No joke. You implied that there was some sort of discrepancy between my provided facts and what the BBC says.

I asked for details on this supposed discrepancy, while expressing skepticism that the supposed discrepancy even existed.

I was not at all surprised to find out that the supposed discrepancy between me and the BBC was entirely fictitious.
McTag
 
  6  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 07:15 am
@oralloy,

Quote:
I asked for details on this supposed discrepancy, while expressing skepticism that the supposed discrepancy even existed.


You are incorrigible. This thread, and several other similar, are filled with BBC-sourced and other similar quotes, all of which you dispute, usually on the grounds of your trademark claim of "anti-semitism".
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 08:15 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Thats 65 years where they have not used nuclear weapons . It has probably prevented the Arabs from continuing their military attacks against Israel . Islam already has the bomb in a country called Pakistan . We will see how long that lasts without being used, probably in New York . Have the Jews ever attacked New York ?


Just in the way of some humor, starting about 1881, Jews from Czarist Russia virtually attacked the Lower East Side in Manhattan. Using pushcarts as their main vehicle of attack, they sold vegetables, fruits and other assorted comestibles.

They tore up standard English syntax (I threw my mother from the train a kiss), eventually when to City College and St. John's when other colleges would not admit them, and eventually moved uptown, or to the suburbs in a random retreat.

Today there are neighborhoods inhabited by immigrant families, never knowing that once that neighborhood was a bastion of Jewish denizens. Sort of like what Minsk was and is today in Russia.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 09:38 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
You are incorrigible.

incorrigible: (Of a person or their tendencies) not able to be corrected, improved, or reformed
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/incorrigible

I can live with that.


McTag wrote:
This thread, and several other similar, are filled with BBC-sourced and other similar quotes, all of which you dispute, usually on the grounds of your trademark claim of "anti-semitism".

Your failure to produce any BBC position that supposedly contradicts my facts, continues.

I finally thought of a good name for my new World of Warcraft character. I don't want to publicize the name though, because now and then I get an internet stalker.

Haven't had time to make the character yet. It's been a busy couple days.

If you manage to come up with any BBC position that you think contradicts my facts, go ahead and post about it.
0 Replies
 
 

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