61
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
sleestak
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 11:24 am
@Robert Gentel,
Your choice of the word "appropriate" is very amusing. Israel took land from attackers. If the attackers had not made the bad choice of attacking, we would not be here. Israel has the right to keep land it won through battle, especially to give additional security in the future. The US kept land in won through war in the West, through its war with Mexico. England did that in North America, when it kicked the French out.

The precedent is out there, although not always followed, like when the US gave Japan back to its people, after winning in WW2. Of course, the US doesn't have to and didn't have to worry about Japan attacking again. Israel still has that problem, until the Palestinians recognize Israel as the victor and renounce future violence. The Palestinians have too much false pride, and are too irrational and emotional to see the path towards normalization of the countries' relationship.

By the way, if you are going to do an Arab-Israeli conflict history, you need to take it back a couple thousand years further than 1516.
Robert Gentel
 
  7  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 11:41 am
@sleestak,
sleestak wrote:
Your choice of the word "appropriate" is very amusing. Israel took land from attackers. If the attackers had not made the bad choice of attacking, we would not be here.


This fails to recognize that early Zionists were terrorists, bombing places to get the state established and that once they did some of them engaged in thuggery to drive Palestinians out, creating the first of the refugees.

The attacks didn't happen in a vacuum, Zionists decided to plop a country down on top of extant populations. They didn't attack for shits and giggles but for the very territorial dispute that is ongoing.

Quote:
Israel still has that problem, until the Palestinians recognize Israel as the victor and renounce future violence.


Israel also has a sizable block of religious extremists who believe the land is promised to them by their god and worth fighting for.

To pretend that the Palestinians are the only obstructionists is to take a blind eye to one side of the conflict. If the Palestinians said all of that tomorrow the Israeli extremists would still be systematically settling their land, trying to "build facts on the ground" that preclude a viable, territorially contiguous Palestinian state.

The primary obstruction in the last 5 years have been on the side of Israel. Israel has never had a better partner for peace but has shifted to the right and doesn't currently want it enough. The current Palestinian leadership has renounced violence, the Palestinian Authority emphatically so, saying it is simply not an option and Hamas giving a generational truce (they said that their current generation can't bring themselves to make this promise of eternal peace without having their statehood in return but that they offered a generational truce of their own and would let the future generation decide on a permanent truce when and if Israel agrees to a settlement). The "Saudi Proposal" of around 2001 or 2002 also offered pan-Arab normalization of relations. Not just recognition and peace, but of normalized diplomatic and trade relations.

So Israel has a partner for peace now, and the whole world pretty much agrees on what the framework should be (the "1967" borders that are in the graphic I posted in the first post) but now Israel unfortunately has an obstructionist leader in Bibi that does not want to accept this international consensus (even Israel's staunch ally, the US has not ever had a president that did not agree with this framework) and Bibi has announced that the 1967 borders leave Israel too small, too narrow in places and that for "security concerns" this is not an acceptable basis of negotiation.

In other words, he subscribes to an expansionist policy of Greater Israel and does not want to limit Israel's ongoing expansionism to 1967 lines.

Quote:
By the way, if you are going to do an Arab-Israeli conflict history, you need to take it back a couple thousand years further than 1516.


Not if you care about the question of who should have what land. I don't care a whit what someone thinks some god told people thousands of years ago, or what people were living where thousands of years ago, that is not an excuse for expansionism today. That is not an excuse to appropriate private property today, that you claim some distant ancestor of yours lived somewhat nearby thousands of years ago. It's wholly irrelevant to the territorial dispute of today.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 04:04 pm
@Robert Gentel,
robert, some people seem to forget history of Israel. I'm happy to see you keep the record straight; c.i

response from cuba
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2011 04:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
response from cuba


I wonder, will CI get to do his time in a prison close to home?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 04:25 pm
@Robert Gentel,

Yes, well said RG.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 11:25 pm
@McTag,
I agree but we seem to be a minority.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 16 Oct, 2011 02:57 am
@RABEL222,
Well I'm quite happy to join the minority.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Sun 16 Oct, 2011 11:42 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
To pretend that the Palestinians are the only obstructionists is to take a blind eye to one side of the conflict.


It is the Palestinians who responded to the peace process with a massive orgy of murderous violence until it collapsed.

It is the Palestinians who refuse to return to the negotiating table today.

Hardly Israel's fault.



Robert Gentel wrote:
If the Palestinians said all of that tomorrow the Israeli extremists would still be systematically settling their land, trying to "build facts on the ground" that preclude a viable, territorially contiguous Palestinian state.


If the Palestinians showed a genuine interest in peace, either Netanyahu would negotiate the creation of the new Palestinian state, or the Israeli voters would replace him with someone who would.



Robert Gentel wrote:
The primary obstruction in the last 5 years have been on the side of Israel.


All the Israeli voters have seen from the Palestinians over the past five years is more attempts to murder Israeli children.

They are not terribly interested in restarting a peace process with people who don't want peace.



Robert Gentel wrote:
Israel has never had a better partner for peace but has shifted to the right and doesn't currently want it enough.


Israel only shifted to the right because they got sick of being murdered by Palestinians. They will shift back as soon as the Palestinians become peaceful, but not one moment before.



Robert Gentel wrote:
The current Palestinian leadership has renounced violence, the Palestinian Authority emphatically so, saying it is simply not an option and Hamas giving a generational truce (they said that their current generation can't bring themselves to make this promise of eternal peace without having their statehood in return but that they offered a generational truce of their own and would let the future generation decide on a permanent truce when and if Israel agrees to a settlement).

In reality, the Palestinians are refusing to negotiate, are trying to get the UN to allow them to have a state without making peace with Israel, and are trying to end the blockade so that they can resume firing artillery at Israeli civilians.



Robert Gentel wrote:
The "Saudi Proposal" of around 2001 or 2002 also offered pan-Arab normalization of relations. Not just recognition and peace, but of normalized diplomatic and trade relations.


It was unfortunately offered just after the Israeli negotiating attempts were answered by such a violent storm of murderous violence by the Palestinians that negotiations were over and done.

It was also offered with poisonous language implying that Israel was being unreasonable, and the Saudi offer was to try to coax them to be reasonable.

Now, maybe the timing was because the Saudis saw that the Palestinians were dooming peace efforts with their orgy of violence, and the Saudis were desperately trying to rescue things.

And maybe the language was just because if the Saudis were honest about Israel, their own people would explode into a murderous rage (though if that were the case, the answer was not to lie about Israel, the answer was to drive tanks over the rioters until they stop rioting).

But even if the Saudi offer was offered in good faith, the timing and the poisonous language pretty much made it a non-starter.



Robert Gentel wrote:
So Israel has a partner for peace now,


How come the Palestinians are refusing to negotiate? How come they are trying to end the blockade so they can fire more artillery at civilians?



Robert Gentel wrote:
and the whole world pretty much agrees on what the framework should be (the "1967" borders that are in the graphic I posted in the first post) but now Israel unfortunately has an obstructionist leader in Bibi that does not want to accept this international consensus (even Israel's staunch ally, the US has not ever had a president that did not agree with this framework) and Bibi has announced that the 1967 borders leave Israel too small, too narrow in places and that for "security concerns" this is not an acceptable basis of negotiation.


It's hard to say that Netanyahu is obstructionist when it's the Palestinians who are refusing to show up at the negotiating table.

But if Netanyahu were obstructionist, and the Palestinians were ever genuine about peace, the Israeli voters would replace Netanyahu with someone who actually would negotiate.



Robert Gentel wrote:
sleestak wrote:
By the way, if you are going to do an Arab-Israeli conflict history, you need to take it back a couple thousand years further than 1516.


Not if you care about the question of who should have what land. I don't care a whit what someone thinks some god told people thousands of years ago, or what people were living where thousands of years ago, that is not an excuse for expansionism today.


I disagree. The Israelis never gave up their rightful ownership of their homeland, and the Palestinians never had any right to invade other peoples' land and steal their holy sites.

That said, if the Palestinians were ever genuine about peace, they'd have a good shot at getting 1967 borders. (At least until they provoke Israel into annexing land. Once that happens, 1967 borders will never happen.)



Robert Gentel wrote:
That is not an excuse to appropriate private property today, that you claim some distant ancestor of yours lived somewhat nearby thousands of years ago. It's wholly irrelevant to the territorial dispute of today.


I disagree. Why do Muslims get a divine right to keep the land and the holy sites they steal from other people?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 02:24 am
@oralloy,
oralloy, You're a ****'n idiot! Look at the numbers of Palestinian children killed vs Jewish children - if that's possible in your world. Palestinian children's lives are no less important than Jewish children's lives; try to remember that if that's possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948-present
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 02:30 am
@cicerone imposter,
Oralboy is a nasty little bigot. He's a sad inadequate, full of hate. This is the little boy who wanted to bomb Italy because they locked up Amanda Knox. ******* idiots are a lot smarter and behave with more dignity.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 10:41 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Look at the numbers of Palestinian children killed vs Jewish children - if that's possible in your world.


Oh please. Not the "dead children gambit" again.

There is a massive difference between "a Palestinian teenager killed on a battlefield while attacking Israelis with a lethal weapon" and "an Israeli teenager killed by a suicide bomber while dancing in a nightclub".

Your anti-Semitic propaganda fools no one.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 10:42 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
This is the little boy who wanted to bomb Italy because they locked up Amanda Knox.


The correlation between "monsters who support sending innocent people to prison" and "monsters who support the Palestinians" is quite telling.

You can really get a sense how vile and despicable the Palestinians truly are when you take note of the fact that they are supported by vermin like you.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 10:45 am
@oralloy,
Yes; you're the one who brought up dead Jewish children. Not all Palestinian children killed were terrorists. That's total ignorance on your part, and shows you don't care about others in Israel. Typical bigot.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 11:42 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Yes; you're the one who brought up dead Jewish children.


You don't like it when your child-killer buddies get condemned for their murders, do you?



cicerone imposter wrote:
Not all Palestinian children killed were terrorists.


I didn't say they were terrorists. I said they were on the battlefield attacking people with a lethal weapon, and were justly killed in self defense.



cicerone imposter wrote:
That's total ignorance on your part,


Nope. When I counter your lies with facts, that is not ignorance.



cicerone imposter wrote:
and shows you don't care about others in Israel.


True that I don't care about the Palestinians. No good person does. It takes a real scumbag to care about the Palestinians.



cicerone imposter wrote:
Typical bigot.


You trash shouldn't run around falsely accusing your betters of your own bigotry.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 01:24 pm
@oralloy,
Do you know where Gaza is located in Israel? Many children will killed by the Jews when they bombed a school.

Quote:
UN: 257 Palestinian children killed in Gaza
Published: Thursday, January 08, 2009, 8:06 PM
By Bill Meyer, The Plain Dealer

In this Thursday, Jan. 8, 2009, photo, Palestinian children who fled their homes during Israeli army operations walk inside a United Nations school where they are staying, in the Shati refugee camp, in Gaza City.

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip -- Tiny bodies lying side by side wrapped in white burial shrouds. The cherubic face of a dead preschooler sticking up from the rubble of her home. A man cradling a wounded boy in a chaotic
emergency room after Israel shelled a U.N. school.
Children, who make up more than half of crowded Gaza's 1.4 million people, are the most defenseless victims of the war between Israel and Hamas. The Israeli army has unleashed unprecedented force in its campaign against Hamas militants, who have been taking cover among civilians.


Here is a video on the children killed by Jews.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGB4TTw3kHQ
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 11:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Do you know where Gaza is located in Israel? Many children will killed by the Jews when they bombed a school.


Nope. Didn't happen. And none of your anti-Semitic lies can change the fact that it didn't happen.

What happened was some Palestinians outside the school fired some shells into Israel, and Israel returned fire, killing the Palestinians who were firing on them.

There was some minor collateral damage (no one inside the school compound), but nothing worse than would be expected in any combat zone.




cicerone imposter wrote:
Here is a video on the children killed by Jews.


No thanks. Blood Libel makes me a bit nauseous.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 22 Oct, 2011 12:19 am
CI Weve been through this **** many times before. All the facts in the world wont convince this bigot that the Isralies are baby killers. The only thing he knows is hatred and lies. But he is very good at it!!!
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Oct, 2011 12:56 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:
All the facts in the world


You have no facts. You have only anti-Semitism.



RABEL222 wrote:
this bigot


You shouldn't run around falsely accusing people of your own bigotry.



RABEL222 wrote:
the Isralies are baby killers.


Nazi scumbag.



RABEL222 wrote:
The only thing he knows is hatred and lies. But he is very good at it!!!


You shouldn't run around falsely accusing people of your own hatred and dishonesty.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Oct, 2011 09:58 am
@RABEL222,
Yea, the guy is a mental case; he can't see his own people's crimes. Blind as ****, and about as stupid as they come. No humanity left in his soul.

He doesn't even understand the definitions for simple words like "bigot."

oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Oct, 2011 11:00 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Yea, the guy is a mental case;


Nah. I'm just not an anti-Semitic scumbag.



cicerone imposter wrote:
he can't see his own people's crimes.


America isn't committing crimes. We're the good guys, just like Israel.



cicerone imposter wrote:
Blind as ****, and about as stupid as they come.


You trash shouldn't run around falsely accusing your betters of your own stupidity.



cicerone imposter wrote:
No humanity left in his soul.


Just the opposite. It is humanity which drives people to reject your vile anti-Semitism.



cicerone imposter wrote:
He doesn't even understand the definitions for simple words like "bigot."


Nope. I understand just fine.

And monsters like you are the epitome of bigotry.
0 Replies
 
 

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