31
   

THE WAR IN GAZA

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 06:46 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Since 1967 Israel has amply demonstrated that it doesn't believe in "peaceful co-existence" either. It has systematically deprived the Palestinian population of the freedom to move about their territiry and conduct ordianry economic and social lives; it has systematically taken almost half of their territory and done so without any process for compensation or expression of their political will; it has deprived the Palestiunians of any political rights and subjected them to military occupation for decades. After all of this it demands that the Palestinians renounce any ambition to restore their losses as a precondition of any negotiations towards a peaceful accomodation.

Indeed it is fairly clear that all of this is a well-thought-out Israeli strategy to expand their territory. They have put forward the illusion that they are seeking a peaceful "land for peace" solution (i.e. we will give you back some of YOUR land in exchange for permanent status as a vassal state), while in fact exploiting the conflict to achieve the goals of Zionist zealots for the creation of a greater Israel.
You hit the nail there George.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 09:25 am
@Steve 41oo,
Stopping by to say my admiration for both Steve and George - most of us will not make the effort to argue with religious zealots fervent in their belief that God gave them the land. Maybe God should also be getting the bills for it?!

Unrelated to foreign affairs, btw, here's a "mot" heard in Palm Beach "old" society since Bernie Madoff's gigascam became public: "This is terrific, maybe now we'll get our land back!"
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 09:44 am
@High Seas,
PS from a new thread by BBB:
Quote:
Anyone who even casually followed the Freeman attacks from the start knew where most of the attacks originated. Once it was over, neocons like Daniel Pipes were sending out celebratory emails hailing former AIPAC official (and accused espionage defendant) Steve Rosen as being the catalyzing force behind the anti-Freeman campaign. Dan Flesher reported that, throughout the controversy, Block himself, on behalf of AIPAC, was contacting journalists and bloggers and (while hiding behind grants of anonymity) encouraging and feeding the attacks on Freeman.


Enough.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 06:23 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
I did not know I had to keep my compassion for "ordinary human beings" in the "on" position 24/7. I do like to see the big picture, and since I do not like to multi-task, I put my compassion for ordinary human beings on "standby" mode, while I look at the big picture. ....


No, of course you don't have to automatically feel compassion, Foofie. You either do or you don't respond the the acute suffering of ordinary people experiencing terrible things, (even if you have no such similar experience yourself) as a result of war. No matter which "side" you're on, in any particular conflict. Seems to me that you just want to see your side "win", no matter what sorts of appalling tactics it might employ to gain their "victory". The trouble with that, of course, is that the rest of the civilized world is appalled by your side's tactics. One day, not too far away, Israel might just wake up & wonder why there's no support left for it's "cause". Perhaps you should include that notion in your "big picture"?


Like Jews had a lot of support when the Nazis where hunting them? You do not get it, history proves that more often than not, Jews have little support whether they are doing the right thing, the wrong thing, or nothing! Notice, I am not proselytizing for you to support Israel. Are you proselytizing to me?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 06:29 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Stopping by to say my admiration for both Steve and George - most of us will not make the effort to argue with religious zealots fervent in their belief that God gave them the land. Maybe God should also be getting the bills for it?!

Unrelated to foreign affairs, btw, here's a "mot" heard in Palm Beach "old" society since Bernie Madoff's gigascam became public: "This is terrific, maybe now we'll get our land back!"


You mean to play golf at restricted clubs?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 06:33 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Stopping by to say my admiration for both Steve and George - most of us will not make the effort to argue with religious zealots fervent in their belief that God gave them the land. Maybe God should also be getting the bills for it?!



God never gave the Jews Israel. The UN did. Perhaps, while the memory of the Holocaust was still fresh in people's minds, and 500,000 displaced people where making England less British. People's memories can be so self-serving, in my opinion - remember when it serves one's purpose; forget when it serves one's purpose.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 05:04 am
@Foofie,
Foofie

Jews are not alone in their history of sufferering & injustice at the hands of ruthless oppressors ... also the lack of support & acknowledgement of their dire predicament. My ancestors are Ukrainian. Millions died in the great famine in Ukraine (1932 -3) imposed by Stalin, yet there was wide-spread denial this was actually happening at the time. And later. No matter what persecution Ukrainians (or any other nationality, ethnic or religious group) endured at the hands of oppressors in the past, this terrible & sad history cannot be used as a justification for the oppression of others, later on. That's what I sincerely believe, anyway.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 06:21 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
...The UN did. Perhaps, while the memory of the Holocaust was still fresh in people's minds, and 500,000 displaced people where making England less British. People's memories can be so self-serving, in my opinion - remember when it serves one's purpose; forget when it serves one's purpose.
I think you're losing the plot Foof. What does this mean? Would you like to put the 3 sentences above into clear English? (British or American English your choice).

Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 08:20 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Foofie

Jews are not alone in their history of sufferering & injustice at the hands of ruthless oppressors ... also the lack of support & acknowledgement of their dire predicament. My ancestors are Ukrainian. Millions died in the great famine in Ukraine (1932 -3) imposed by Stalin, yet there was wide-spread denial this was actually happening at the time. And later. No matter what persecution Ukrainians (or any other nationality, ethnic or religious group) endured at the hands of oppressors in the past, this terrible & sad history cannot be used as a justification for the oppression of others, later on. That's what I sincerely believe, anyway.


Sure, Jews are not the only victims of man's inhumanity to man. However, there is a Ukraine, and Ukrainians live there (when they are not coming to the U.S.A.). In other words, after the smoke clears, the victims get to live in peace. Israel has not had peace since its inception, due to neighbors that would rather Israel swim into the Mediterranean. The Holocaust for the Jews does not justify their actions in war. They would have to deal with their military efforts regardless if there was no Holocaust. In my opinion, there are those that have made the Holocaust a false reason/rationale for Israel's militancy. No, nations that have the means to protect their population from hostile outside forces do so. The reference to the Holocaust by so many people, I believe, is a false correlation to Israel's militancy.

You see, with or without the Holocaust there are very few Jews in the world, considering they are the only group that survives and developed the concept of monotheism. I mean, they do not need the Holocaust to have a reason to protect their existence in that one little spot of land. There is no Commonwealth of Israel; they are not so lucky.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 08:24 am
@Steve 41oo,
Steve 41oo wrote:

Foofie wrote:
...The UN did. Perhaps, while the memory of the Holocaust was still fresh in people's minds, and 500,000 displaced people where making England less British. People's memories can be so self-serving, in my opinion - remember when it serves one's purpose; forget when it serves one's purpose.
I think you're losing the plot Foof. What does this mean? Would you like to put the 3 sentences above into clear English? (British or American English your choice).




Sure enough. I am saying the British were solving two problems with allowing the UN to make Israel a Zionist State: a) Help assuage any guilt by the Allies that little was done to help the Jews, during the war, evade the Final Solution. b) Get the survivors of the Final Solution out of Britain where folks were not usually happy with the presence of these non-English speaking people.

In effect, I believe, Israel came into existence based on two self-serving reasons.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 09:21 am
@Foofie,
I think your answer betrays a very superficial and distorted view of history. Sure Britain's hands are not clean. We made contradictory promises to Arabs and Jews. But we did what we could to give shelter to Jews fleeing nazi Germany. And later with Americans and Russians we liberated Europe from tyranny. After the war the country was bankrupt and we could no longer administer the Mandate in the face of Jewish terrorism. So Britain was forced out and the Zionists embarked on their programme which goes on to this day. Your hatred of Britain, which frankly is palpable, is not justified by the facts.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 12:02 pm
@Steve 41oo,
Steve 41oo wrote:

I think your answer betrays a very superficial and distorted view of history. Sure Britain's hands are not clean. We made contradictory promises to Arabs and Jews. But we did what we could to give shelter to Jews fleeing nazi Germany. And later with Americans and Russians we liberated Europe from tyranny. After the war the country was bankrupt and we could no longer administer the Mandate in the face of Jewish terrorism. So Britain was forced out and the Zionists embarked on their programme which goes on to this day. Your hatred of Britain, which frankly is palpable, is not justified by the facts.


Who said I hate Britain. I do not hate Britain, nor its people. I just believe Britain will be self-serving in its decisions, as most countries are. If they do anything it is for its benefit, I believe. If Hitler would have been threatening the U.S.A., I cannot conclude that Britain would come to the rescue of the U.S.A. That is not hatred, that is my version of realistic distrust.

Brits being the prototype of American WASP's might have a good understanding of the words, "boring" and "pompous," in my opinion. Both good traits for lecturing college professors. Yet, Lewis Carroll (Charles Lutwidge Dodgson) lectured math(s) at Christ Church, and came up with Alice in Wonderland? Possibly, I should add "eccentric" to that list of words?
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 12:29 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

God never gave the Jews Israel. The UN did.


The UN gave Israel borders which apparently conflict with God's, hence the massive settlement and expansionist movement. If you accept that the UN gave Israel land then you have to accept that they also established a Palestinian state, much of which has been appropriated by Israel.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 01:41 pm
@FreeDuck,
Let's get it straight. The UN set borders and, in essence, gave legitimacy to the state of Israel. The Jews purchased most of the land in Israel, and also settled on unowned wasteland. Some land taken was previously owned by the Pal traitors who abandoned Israel at the behest of the invading Arab armies. The Pals could have set up a state in the WB and Gaza, but the Arab nations preferred that the Pals just fester there, getting support from the UN.
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 03:08 pm
Israel probably is the greatest threat to world security at this time, not Iran. Iran's attaining nuclear capabilities would not be Earth-shaking because they could not possibility use them. However, Israel did plan a nuclear attack on Iran in 2007, which apparantly the new Secretary of Defense Robert Gates stopped, a plan which once again may be gaining momentum. The nuclear attack would include nuclear-tipped bunker buster bombs meant to destroy underground plants. A pre-emptive nuclear attack on Iran could easily grow into a nuclear war. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1290331.ece
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 04:41 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Who said I hate Britain.
Me.
Quote:
I do not hate Britain, nor its people.
good.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 05:50 pm
@Steve 41oo,
Well I was brought up to dislike the British. My father who was then in the Congress voted against the Lend Lease program to help arm Britain, saying that "one war in this century to save the British Empire is more than enough". (We were members of various irish/Celtic groups and I played football for the local Gaelic league.) However, his early memories were forged in Ireland as were my mother's. Oddly though they didn't like 'England' as they called it, they weren't really hostile to individual Brits.

Now they've all become Europeans - hard to distinguish them from the French & Germans any more. Cool
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 06:13 pm
@Foofie,
I hear what you're saying Foofie, and also found George's comments interesting. Having branches of family from England, Ireland, and Scotland--and that's one fourth of the family--I'm a real mutt--we liked all the folks over there--except Montgomery who our WWII generation described in rather uncomplimentary terms.

I have always thought that if any countries in the world would come to our defense should we need it, it would be the U.K. and the Australians. It would be a real disappointment to me if they did not.

Why keep on defending Israel? It is difficult for me to put a finger on that, but for me it is a combination of reason--Israel is the most Democratic country in that part of the world and that should be encouraged, not condemned--but it's also a deeply rooted cultural thing that it would just feel wrong if there was no Israel. Not entirely a rational reason I know, but an honest one. I'm guessing Israeli Arabs do not want Israel to go away either.

Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 06:35 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Why keep on defending Israel? It is difficult for me to put a finger on that, but for me it is a combination of reason--Israel is the most Democratic country in that part of the world and that should be encouraged, not condemned--but it's also a deeply rooted cultural thing that it would just feel wrong if there was no Israel. Not entirely a rational reason I know, but an honest one. I'm guessing Israeli Arabs do not want Israel to go away either.


Israel's existence, as a Zionist State, is added vindication of fighting WWII in Europe. It proves that the Final Solution Nazi effort to gather as much documentation about the Jews as possible, to be put into the Museum of an Extinct Race that the Nazis were hoping to have, of naught value.

But, not everyone feels that way, obviously.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 06:38 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Well I was brought up to dislike the British. My father who was then in the Congress voted against the Lend Lease program to help arm Britain, saying that "one war in this century to save the British Empire is more than enough". (We were members of various irish/Celtic groups and I played football for the local Gaelic league.) However, his early memories were forged in Ireland as were my mother's. Oddly though they didn't like 'England' as they called it, they weren't really hostile to individual Brits.

Now they've all become Europeans - hard to distinguish them from the French & Germans any more. Cool


Yes, I know that there are Irish that do not "love" the British. Then why do so many Irish live and work in Britain? Other than the Soviet Jews that went to Germany for a better life, we do not see many American Jews that live and work in Germany? For that 800 - 900 years of subjugation, does it not seem odd to then live and work in that country?????
 

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