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Proposed Cease-Fire in Gaza

 
 
gollum
 
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2024 06:23 am
Unfortunately, wars are going on around the world: in Ukraine against Russia and the Houthis against Yemen (and shipping).

However, only in the Israel-Hamas war are there major protests in the U.S. calling for a cease-fire.

Why?
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Type: Question • Score: 2 • Views: 668 • Replies: 17
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hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2024 08:21 am
@gollum,
Quote:

However, only in the Israel-Hamas war are there major protests in the U.S. calling for a cease-fire.


Primarily because of the arms sales by the US, the extent of the death and destruction, and disagreement between domestic supporters and opponents of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Arguments for supporting Ukraine and protecting international shipping lanes, while not supported universally, have been easier to accept.
gollum
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 20 Feb, 2024 04:50 pm
@hightor,
If Israel had responded to the events of October 7th by attacking Iran instead of Gaza, would world opinion still be against Israel?
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Feb, 2024 09:17 am
@gollum,
Well, would you have been happier if that happened?
gollum
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2024 05:06 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag-

I would hit back at the head of the snake (Iran), not the proxy (Hamas).
0 Replies
 
gollum
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 1 Mar, 2024 04:18 pm
@hightor,
hightor-

I believe the U.S. has arms sales to Ukraine.

I acknowledge the suffering of the Palestinians (because Hamas uses them as human shields). The Russian conscripts are also suffering.
Robert111333
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 21 Aug, 2024 11:47 am
@gollum,
Its simply human nature to demand/campaign for a cessation of hostilities, where those who one supports are losing a war.

In these circumstances such demands are intended to preserve Hamas so that they may have the future opportunity to repeat their aggression once the world has paid, as it always does, to allow Hamas to rebuild and rearm.

The Palestinian Arabs' primary support is from anti-Semites:
Little condemnation of the Palestinian Arab - Hamas massacre of Israelis of October 7, 2023, compared with much condemnation of Israel's consequential war of deterrence and defense.

The reader may have noticed the Media reports where there appears to be significant horror expressed as to the wellbeing of the Gazan Palestinian Arabs, yet by comparison, little such horror expressed over the plight of people in other conflict zones such as for example Sudan, and Tigray - Ethiopia.


Survey on Palestinian support for the October 7 2023 massacre:

A survey has been carried out on Palestinian Arab views on the October 7, 2023 massacre, with highlights of the results reported by ILTV, Israel Daily News of November 19, 2023:

Quote:
‘[...] In the aftermath of the October 7th [2023] massacre, opinions on the war are sharply divided globally. According to a recent poll by the “Arab World for Research and Development”, Palestinian society appears less divided on the matter compared to the rest of the world. The survey, conducted on November 14th [2023], asked Palestinians about their support for the massacre, with the majority of respondents expressing support for the attack.

Breaking down the data, 63.6% of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip supported the attack to some extent, with 14.4% expressing neither support nor opposition.

In Judea and Samaria the support [for the attack] was higher at 75.2%.

However, a notable 20.9% of Gazans opposed the attack. [...]'

Source:
ILTV, Israel Daily News of November 19, 2023:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySmmHglsBKk

Referring to source:
Public Opinion Polls [of the October 7, 2023 attack] by the “Arab World for Research and Development”, November 14, 2023:
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public Opinion Poll - Gaza War 2023 - Tables of Results.pdf



If Israel does not prosecute the war against Hamas to the military conclusion, so will there be the risk of a security failure similar to that of October 7, 2023, at some time in the future (whether near-future or distant). In any next such occasion, instead of a thousand terrorists issuing forth from Gaza, a place from which Israel gets zero time warning of any ground-invasion, it will be thousands, with catastrophic consequences for the continuance of the State !


Not having anyone known to me being one of the hostages, I cannot therefore imagine clearly the suffering that the families of the hostages go through on a daily basis.

Why did Hamas take hostages and why have they continued to keep them captive?

I assume it is, to:
Obstruct the Israeli military response.
To cause the families of the hostages to campaign in manner such that the effect thereof is to make less effective or even curtail, the Israeli military response.
To cause dissension and discord within Israeli society.


I would hope that the families of the hostages will consider the following:

Do they want their understandable emotional pain to be inflicted again in the future by the Palestinian Arabs, on more Israeli families, or do they want the IDF to take such steps against the Palestinian Arabs, that the Palestinian Arabs' atrocities of October 7th 2023, should never be repeated?
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Aug, 2024 03:24 pm
@gollum,
gollum wrote:

hightor-

I believe the U.S. has arms sales to Ukraine.

I acknowledge the suffering of the Palestinians (because Hamas uses them as human shields). The Russian conscripts are also suffering.

Ukraine is clearly defending itself and the US is honoring a pledge made to Ukraine when they gave up their nuclear weapons, so very easy to support arms sales/transfers there.

At this point, Israel is just killing people for the fun of it and it's pretty appalling. There have been so many "accidents" at this point where Israel has hit schools, hospitals, relief convoys, etc that only a complete apologist for Israel could believe it. As for hitting Iran, that would send up the entire Middle East. Iran is not a small country nor is it fractured like Syria or Lebanon. This is a country that repelled Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war by throwing bodies at the Iraqis until they couldn't take it anymore.
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The Anointed
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2024 12:56 am
@Robert111333,
When did the Israelites first arrack and conquer the country that was called the land of Canaan.
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2024 01:10 am
@The Anointed,
I'll go and check my bible, get back to you later.
The Anointed
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2024 05:26 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
I'll go and check my bible, get back to you later.


I doubt that you could ever find a bible, so don't bother looking for one, I'll let you know when the invasion of the land of Canaan began. It was with the attack on the city of Jericho in 1505 B.C. 40 years after their release from Egypt.
0 Replies
 
Robert111333
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2024 02:09 pm
@The Anointed,
Contributor "The Anointed" asked:
'When did the Israelites first [attack] and conquer the country that was called the land of Canaan.':

The order to destroy the Canaanites and to take Canaan was given by God / Allah to the Children of Israel; therefore there was no “theft”:

Quote:
Deuteronomy, Chapter 7:

1. When the Lord, your God, brings you into the land to which you are coming to possess it, He will cast away many nations from before you: the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites, seven nations more numerous and powerful than you.

2. And the Lord, your God, will deliver them to you, and you shall smite them. You shall utterly destroy them; neither shall you make a covenant with them, nor be gracious to them.

Translation extract source:
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9971/jewish/Chapter-7.htm



What was the reason given by God / Allah for His command to the Children of Israel to destroy the Canaanites and to take Canaan?
[/quote]Leviticus - Chapter 18:

1. [...] like the practice of the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you, you shall not do, and you shall not follow their statutes.
[...]

24. You shall not defile yourselves by any of these things, for the nations, whom I am sending away from before you, have defiled themselves with all these things.

27. For the people of the land who preceded you, did all of these abominations, and the land became defiled.

Translation extract source:
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9919/jewish/Chapter-18.htm[/quote]


More specifically regarding "when", it is only possible to refer to this by Book and Chapter, as follows :
Jericho - see Joshua chapter 6.
Ai - see Joshua chapter 8.


The reader may also be interested in this translation extract from the noble Quran:

Quote:
Sura (chapter) “Al-Maaida” [“The Table” or “The Table Spread with Food”] 5:21:

'O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you,
and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'

Translation extract source:
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=5&translator=2&mac=


(The context from which the extract from the Quran is taken is consistent with the quote (for example, the previous verse 20 mentions Moses); and if someone alleges that it does not, then the reader should expect them to be able to explain that ! )

The Anointed
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2024 06:25 pm
@Robert111333,
Quote:
Contributor "The Anointed" asked:
'When did the Israelites first [attack] and conquer the country that was called the land of Canaan.':


It may have been called the land of Canaan, but it was the land that had been allocated to Shem and his descendants, which was later occupied by Canaan, who was cursed by Noah.

28 And Ham and his sons went into the land which he was to occupy, which he acquired as his portion 29 in the land of the south. And Canaan saw the land of Lebanon to the river of Egypt, that it was very good, and he went not into the land of his inheritance to the west (that is to) the sea, and he dwelt in the land of Lebanon, eastward and westward from the border of Jordan and from the border 30 of the sea. And Ham, his father, and Cush and Mizraim his brothers said unto him: ’Thou hast settled in a land which is not thine, and which did not fall to us by lot: do not do so; for if thou dost do so, thou and thy sons will fall in the land and (be) accursed through sedition; for by sedition 31 ye have settled, and by sedition will thy children fall, and thou shalt be rooted out for ever.

Dwell 32 not in the dwelling of Shem; for to Shem and to his sons did it come by their lot. Cursed art thou, and cursed shalt thou be beyond all the sons of Noah, by the curse by which we bound our-33 selves by an oath in the presence of the holy judge, and in the presence of Noah our father.’ But he did not harken unto them, and dwelt in the land of Lebanon from Hamath to the entering of 34,35 Egypt, he and his sons until this day. And for this reason that land is named Canaan.
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izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2024 01:45 pm
I can't speak for events in America, but over here Netanyahu has lost the narrative.

After the atrocities of 7th October last year the public mood was with Israel.

This was so great that certain supermarket chains changed their Christmas adverts which had been predominently green and red, the colours of Christmas, but also the main colours of the Palestinian flag.

As the Palestinian body count racked up public opinion shifted. People are now very much on the side of Palestinian self determination.

What is concerning however, is that both Hamas and Hezbollah are being mythologised as freedom fighters and heroes.

As for the hostages, there still is some sympathy, but Netanyahu doesn't seem to be that bothered about them to be honest.

Most of the hostages who have returned safe and well did so by negotiation, but Netanyahu would rather use the military option which has killed more hostages than it's rescued.

It looks like the hostages are a pretext for Netanyahu to wage all out war on the Palestinian and Lebanese peoples.
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Oct, 2024 04:18 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush-

You advocate negotiation instead of the military option. I think that would result in future October 7ths.

To the degree that negotiation has worked, it may be because Hamas leadership knows it is being destroyed on the battlefield.
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Oct, 2024 04:39 am
@gollum,
The condition of the hostages returned to Israel from Hamas captivity has been varied. Many returned in fragile physical and emotional states, with reports indicating they suffered from poor treatment. Some have shared traumatic experiences, including threats of violence, confinement, and severe psychological distress. There have been specific accounts of women fearing they may have been victims of sexual violence, though many survivors have not wanted to discuss these experiences publicly.

Additionally, the ongoing trauma has left many with psychological scars, including flashbacks and nightmares. Counseling and psychiatric care are being provided to help with the long-term mental health impacts of their captivity.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Oct, 2024 11:43 am
@gollum,
Until there is Palestinian self determination this will never end.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Oct, 2024 11:58 am
Quote:
In its assault on northern Gaza, Israel has taken its depraved campaign to new depths
Owen Jones

Healthcare facilities burn, food and water are blocked and drones shoot their fleeing targets. Yet we cannot say we were not warned

The killing fields of northern Gaza speak of a crime that was confessed to long ago. The Israeli state is creating “a lifeless desert” and an “unliveable wasteland”, says Médecins Sans Frontières, “effectively emptying out the whole north of the Strip of Palestinian life”. Even by the standards of Israel’s year-long genocidal assault, this autumn’s attacks on the north have been defined by shocking levels of depravity. Yet almost a year ago, this very outcome was detailed on the pages of a seemingly obscure British journal.

Giora Eiland is a retired Israeli general who – according to US diplomatic cables leaked by WikiLeaks – described Gaza as “a huge concentration camp” in 2004. He is the former head of Israel’s national security council, and says he is now acting as an adviser to Israeli defence minister Yoav Gallant.

Last October he sketched out his vision for Gaza’s future in Fathom, the quarterly journal of the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre, a prominent British pro-Israel lobby group. Backing the total siege Gallant imposed on what he called human animals, Eiland argued Israel must “prevent others from giving clear assistance to Gaza”, and that the Palestinian population must leave “either temporarily or permanently”. There was no subtlety here. “The people should be told that they have two choices,” he declared, “to stay and to starve, or to leave.” And if they did not consent to this mass ethnic cleansing, “they will starve not because of the Israeli bombs, but because there will be no water in Gaza”.

Around the same time, in his column in “centrist” Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth, he emphasised the need to ban fuel from entering Gaza, warning it would mean Palestinians would present to the world “babies who died in incubators as a result of a power outage due to the lack of fuel”, but that this was a “necessary condition” in an “existential war, and we are facing a situation of either us or them”. Less than three weeks later, newborn babies did indeed begin to die as Israel cut off fuel from the now largely destroyed al-Shifa hospital. In November 2023, Eiland denounced talk of “the ‘poor’ women of Gaza”, on the grounds “they are all the mothers, sisters or wives of Hamas murderers”, and urged Israel to embrace the spread of epidemics because it “will bring victory closer and reduce casualties among IDF soldiers”.

More recently, Eiland cooked up what is called the “generals’ plan”, in which Israel orders civilians to leave an entirely besieged northern Gaza and declares it a closed military zone, with those remaining deemed legitimate targets. Eiland has stuck stubbornly to his script, declaring: “It doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re going to kill every person. It will not be necessary. People will not be able to live there. The water will dry up.” Publicly, the Israeli authorities deny that the plan is being implemented – unsurprisingly, as it would mean confessing to grave war crimes – but one official told the Associated Press that parts of it were already being carried out, and three army reservists have told Haaretz they believe it is being used in northern Gaza.

Indeed, food and other essentials of life have been blocked by Israel from reaching the 400,000 Palestinians remaining north of the Wadi Gaza. As Liz Allcock from Medical Aid for Palestinians – who was in Gaza for months – tells me, Israel’s evacuation orders give “the impression people will have safe passage, and they absolutely do not have safe passage”. She points out that, according to recent analysis, only about 150 Palestinians have moved south in the past few weeks.

Indeed, one UN official in Gaza tells me that their convoys have been repeatedly shot at, as they passed the bodies of shot Palestinians by the roadside, who had no weapons on them. There are many who are old, disabled or ill, who would not survive such a journey in any case. Others are exhausted by multiple forced displacements, traumatised by Israel’s killing of so many loved ones. “They’re not living any kind of life, they’re surviving day to day, and some prefer to die at home instead of having to move again, since safety is not guaranteed anywhere,” the UN official says. “I speak to people there every day and they’re either terrified or have completely given up on life.”

Allcock vividly vouches for this story. Nowhere is safe in Gaza, and broken, emotional Palestinians decide better to be killed in the north “than go south to live in a tent, dig a hole to go to the toilet, and maybe be killed anyway”. In the besieged Jabalia camp, 18,000 Palestinians are deprived of water, food and access to healthcare. Then there are the “quadcopters”, Israel’s armed drones. Dr Nizam Mamode returned in September from volunteering at Nasser hospital for a month, and he estimates that around two thirds of the victims seen there were women and children. “That was persistent, day after day,” he says. The drones fired distinctive pellets, some of which entered the chest; others, the back, as their targets ran away.

Eighty-six per cent of Gaza is now covered by forced displacement orders and, as the UN secretary general notes: “Two million Palestinians are now crammed into a space the size of the Shanghai International Airport.” But here’s the key point: all of Gaza is being rendered uninhabitable, underlined by a new UN report that finds Israel “has implemented a concerted policy to destroy the health-care system of Gaza”. Israel’s relentless, deliberate targeting of healthcare facilities has been described by the UN as constituting “the crime against humanity of extermination”. At al-Aqsa hospital, patients burned alive in their beds, some still attached to IV drips, following an Israeli missile strike this week.

Normally, states that commit atrocities against civilians go to great lengths to cover them up. Israel’s genocidal onslaught is not such an example. Rarely has murderous intent been so shamelessly and unapologetically publicly stated on so many occasions. Every day, the ever-shrinking surviving band of Palestinian journalists document obscene atrocities, while Israeli soldiers post them on social media for public amusement. It may sometimes have troubled you: how were the great human obscenities of the past made possible, both by active complicity and silence, including by those who saw themselves as humane, reasonable, “moderate”, when the scale of the crime must have been obvious? Having lived through a crime that was confessed to loudly and shamelessly from day one, a crime more documented than almost any other – well, now you know.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/17/northern-gaza-israel-depraved-campaign
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