7
   

Stand Up Against the war in Gaza.

 
 
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2008 09:22 am
This is a place for people who oppose the justification and escalation of violence by both sides of the Gaza Strip conflict.

I am tired of the war cheerleaders who are still pushing three lies that are as despicably wrong today as they were 50 years ago.
- Violence of one side or the other is justified.
- Violence is effective and will lead to a better life for the people of one side or the other.
- On side or the (being subhuman) is incapable of peace.

I don't support either side- the Hamas-led government of Gaza and the current government of Israel are both right wing organizations that want more violence and benefit from the war.

There are people on both sides of the conflict who are pushing for peace and understanding. Sadly they are currently being drowned out by the cheering fans who appear to enjoy a good outbreak of hate and violence.

If you want to express your anger at the pro-war forces on both sides, this is a place to do it.
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 7 • Views: 3,538 • Replies: 27

 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2008 12:10 pm
@ebrown p,
These are the true heroes of the Gaza war...

Gush Shalom wrote:

CEASE FIRE NOW!

ad in Ha'aretz

This war is inhuman, unnecessary and harmful. Nothing good for Israel will come out of it!

The killing of hundreds of Palestinians and the destruction of the infrastructure of life in the Gaza Strip are abominable acts. Those who hope to reap electoral profits from them are greatly mistaken.

A ground invasion will cause even greater harm, destroy what is left in Gaza and cause many casualties " Israelis and Palestinians, soldiers and civilians.

If, after hard battles, the Israeli army will succeed in conquering the ruins of Gaza, the result will be, at most, to drive Hamas underground and to increase their influence both in the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank.

The attack, which has already deepened the hatred, will

AROUSE the entire civilized world against us,

RAISE all over the region a new generation that will hate the State of Israel even more,

INCREASE the impact of Hamas,

UNDERMINE even more the position of peace-seeking Palestinians,

PREVENT Palestinian unity, without which there can be no peace.

On behalf of thousands of Israelis who have demonstrated in the streets of Tel-Aviv within hours after the start of the war, we demand:

* To stop at once the attack on Gaza!
* To propose - and to maintain - a cease-fire that will include the end off all violent actions by both sides, a real opening of the border crossings and the termination of the blockade against the population of the Gaza Strip.
* To start a dialogue with Hamas. Hamas is an integral part of Palestinian society and the Palestinian political system. Without their participation, all negotiations and agreements are meaningless.


http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2008 01:10 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

I am tired of the war cheerleaders who are still pushing three lies that are as despicably wrong today as they were 50 years ago.
- Violence of one side or the other is justified.
- Violence is effective and will lead to a better life for the people of one side or the other.
- On side or the (being subhuman) is incapable of peace.



The above three points (is this an internet version of starting a Reformation?) are based, I believe, on the assumption that all violence in the region has the same common denominators. I believe that is false, since Hamas has a charter that references the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Please develop some other points, since I cannot subscribe to these three points, in context of Hamas having an intransigence that other Arab political entities, in my opinion, do not seem to show. Perhaps, one needs to look back nostalgically at the days of Yassar Arafat to understand the difference in today's adversarial situation.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2008 01:20 pm
Quote:
Stand Up Against the war in Gaza.


I'm more agreeable to standing up against HAMAS.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2008 05:44 pm
I dream of another Israel
Uri Avnery
December 30, 2008 /the AGE

As hundreds of Palestinians die under Israeli fire in Gaza, it's time to demand a true peace movement.

Uri Avnery is an Israeli peace activist and a former member of the Knesset. In the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, he was a fighter in the Samson's Foxes commando unit. The full text of this article is published at gush-shalom.org

Quote:
....We in the peace camp include many wonderful men and women who confront the army every week in the fight against the wall, who monitor the checkpoints, who refuse to serve in the occupation army, who fight against the occupation in dozens of ways.

But while we stand and protest, the settlers rush ahead. Sometimes I have the feeling that the dogs bark and the caravan moves on " and I am not content with being the dog. We chase the mosquitoes, but the swamp that produces the mosquitoes gets bigger and bigger. The swamp is political. Only a political force can drain it " a force that can confront the ruling powers, influence the decisions of the government and the Knesset.

That is a historic failure, and we bear responsibility for it. We have to think anew, examine everything we have done up to now and find out where we went wrong. Why did we not succeed in convincing enough of the young, of the oriental Jewish community, of the immigrants from Russia, of the Arab community in Israel, of the moderate religious sector, that it is possible to bring about change, that indeed we can?

Why did we not succeed in touching the heart of the young generation that is disgusted by the politics they know? ....


http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/i-dream-of-another-israel-20081229-76sc.html?page=-1
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2008 06:29 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie, I don't think you understand my post.

These are the points that H2OMan subscribe to. Hamas supporters also subscribe to these points. I strongly reject these points because I oppose the position of H2Oman and Hamas that this violence is justified or effective.

I agree with you that we need new points.... that is the point.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:34 am
@ebrown p,
How do you make peace with a group that states in their charter that their goal is your destruction.

How do you negotiate with a group that states in their charter that they will absolutely NOT talk or try to make peace?

Hamas makes both of those statements in their charter.

And just so you know I'm not making it up, here is the Charter for Hamas...

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Here is the text of article 13 of their charter, in which they make it quite clear that there can be no talks and that jihad is the only solution.

Quote:
Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."


So tell me, exactly how do you negotiate or compromise with them?

ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 09:20 am
@mysteryman,
Exactly the point MysteryMan... I am arguing against Hamas. Extremists don't make peace.

Peace will be made by reasonable people on both sides. When the people in control choose to negotiate instead of escalating the violence, then peace will come.

Extremism breeds extremism. Hamas is in power because of the harsh actions of the hawkish Israeli government. And... sadly the Israeli government is now becoming even more extreme, willing to justify ever worsening violence committed for its cause.

Hamas won't make peace. The current hawkish government in Israel won't make peace. They are both pushing their people in to worse and worse violence and hatred. We should ditch this course of action.

The first step is to stop the justification of violence.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 10:44 am
@ebrown p,
Quote:
Hamas won't make peace. The current hawkish government in Israel won't make peace. They are both pushing their people in to worse and worse violence and hatred. We should ditch this course of action
.

I agree.
BUT, as long as Hamas is commmitted to the destruction of Israel, and as long as Hamas maintains the attitude that they will not talk, Israel has no choice but to defend themselves.
To ask Israel to not defend themselves while Hamas is free to attack them at will would be suicide for Israel.

However, there may be some cracks in the Arab world verbal defense of Hamas.
The Saudi FM has criticized Hamas and the Palestinian people for the current round of violence.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6555661

Quote:
Saudi Arabia's foreign minister on Wednesday blamed Palestinian divisions for Israel's onslaught on Gaza, a reflection of U.S.-allied Arab governments' anger at the Hamas militant group.

Saud al-Faisal made the comments at an emergency meeting of Arab foreign ministers in the Egyptian capital, convened to try to put together a joint response by the deeply divided Arab nations to the Israeli offensive, which has killed more than 370 Palestinians and sparked outrage across the Middle East.

Pro-U.S. Arab countries " Egypt, in particular " have come under heavy criticism in widespread street protests, as well as from Iran, Hamas, the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah, for allegedly not doing enough to stop Israel or help Gazans. Officials and pro-government media in Egypt and Saudi Arabia have responded by blaming Hamas for provoking Israel and accusing the militant group of being a proxy promoting the power of regional rival Iran.


Read the rest of the article.
It seems that SAudi Arabia is getting fed up with Hamas also.






0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 10:52 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

The first step is to stop the justification of violence.

the Palestinian people of Gaza and elsewhere have right to defend themselves against Zionist attacks.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 11:21 am
@Steve 41oo,
Steve 41oo wrote:

ebrown p wrote:

The first step is to stop the justification of violence.

the Palestinian people of Gaza and elsewhere have right to defend themselves against Zionist attacks.


"Zionist attacks"? There is a state called "Zionist"? No. It is Israel attacking, like any other modern nation would defend itself, if rockets were fired into its borders.

The phraseology of "Zionist" lessens the validity of any argument, since it implies, in my opinion, that a Zionist (state) has a penchant for attacking ANY non-Zionist state. Should I get under a table, the next time I hear a plane?

Can we refer to Arab states then as anti-Zionist states? That might put the adversarial situation into a clearer light. Can we make a simple algebraic equation? "X" anti-Zionist states = 1 Zionist state. Let us solve for "X".
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 11:23 am
@Steve 41oo,
Mysteryman wrote:
Israel has no choice but to defend themselves.

Steve wrote:
the Palestinian people of Gaza and elsewhere have right to defend themselves against Zionist attacks.


The phrase "has no choice" is meaningless in this context. Of course Israel needs to "defend itself". This does not mean it needs to bomb Gaza. This certainly does not mean it needs to bomb civilian neighborhood (they could have limited themselves to military target). And this most definitely does not mean it needs to continue the harsh economic sanctions that are impoverishing every citizen of Gaza irregardless of their political stance.

There are lots of choices here.

There is no one in power, either in Hamas or in the Israeli government that is calling for restraint, for good will or for peace.


H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 01:49 pm
@ebrown p,
What's your point?

Defense of ones self is justified and effective.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 02:58 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
Defense of ones self is justified and effective.


In the Israeli/Palestinian conflict both sides have used brutal violence, and both sides have claimed they are acting in self-defense.

If what you say is true, why has this bloody conflict lasted for over 50 years?
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 03:43 pm
@ebrown p,


OK... it's survival at it's best.

May the people best equipped to survive win.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 03:50 pm
I just saw a cartoon posted on another thread, and it makes a good point.

Everyone is calling for a "proportional response" from Israel regarding the Hamas rocket attacks on Israel.

So, would it be considered a "proportional response" if Israel were just tomlaunch random rocket attacks into Gaza?
For every rocket Hamas fires, Israel could fire one, with no worry about where it lands.
After all, thats what Hamas is doing.
So, if Israel does the same thing, that would have to be considered a "proportional response", wouldnt it.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 04:06 pm
@mysteryman,



Good point!!

Could you post the cartoon here?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 07:26 pm
Proportional responses can also be called ping-pong. Notice how one wins at ping-pong. A slammed response, not proportional.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 07:30 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

This certainly does not mean it needs to bomb civilian neighborhood (they could have limited themselves to military target). And this most definitely does not mean it needs to continue the harsh economic sanctions that are impoverishing every citizen of Gaza irregardless of their political stance.



The rockets aimed at Israel are coming from civilian neighborhoods. There are no military targets per se in Gaza.

And how does one blame Israel for "harsh economic sanctions"? I would think Gaza would be having a thriving commercial business with neighboring Egypt. Why would one "trade" with the enemy.
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 09:05 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie,

Two things are very clear from your posts.

1) You have formed strong opinions about who is right and who is wrong.
2) You are ignorant about the basic facts of the conflict.

Strong opinions based on ignorance is a very dangerous combination.

I suggest you learn about the blockade that Israel maintains on the Gaza strip and how Egypt cooperates in enforcing this blockade before embarrassing yourself further.

Google will provide any number of unbiased descriptions of the situation... as well as the biased ones you have apparently already skimmed.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
GAFFNEY: Whose side is Obama on? - Discussion by gungasnake
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Stand Up Against the war in Gaza.
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.21 seconds on 08/24/2019 at 10:33:01