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THE WAR IN GAZA

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2008 08:46 pm
@ebrown p,
Quote:
Israel has imposed a harsh economic and military blockade on the people of Gaza plunging civilians into poverty and hunger.


They plunged themselves into poverty and hunger by electing hamas as their government. Stupid, evil people....
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2008 11:00 pm
Before Hamas, leaders in Gaza proposed remaking Gaza into a prosperous Singapore-like state. However, once Hamas took over and began its mindless war with Israel, all progress in Gaza ceased.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2008 11:12 pm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2157074/posts

Quote:

The Gaza operation's unstated goal: Anarchy
The Jerusalem Post ^ | January 1, 2009 | Herb Keinon

Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:08:18 PM by 2ndDivisionVet

Hamas, judging by its rhetoric and suicide bombers, is not afraid of death.

Judging by its policies, Hamas is also not afraid of causing the death or suffering of fellow Palestinians. And Hamas is definitely not afraid of killing Jews.

What Hamas is afraid of, however, is losing power; losing control of the Gaza Strip, losing its base of Islamic fundamentalism in this little corner of the Middle East.

And that fear - and the appreciation in Israel of the importance of power to Hamas - explains some of Israel's actions over the last few days in the Gaza Strip.

Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) head Yuval Diskin told the security cabinet Wednesday that Hamas's ability to govern Gaza has been significantly impaired. And that, it appears, is one of the key tactical goals of the military actions of the last few days.

Operation Cast Lead began Saturday with an attack on training bases and command and control centers, the symbols of the Islamist organization's iron grip on the Strip's 1.4 million people.

It also included an attack on a graduation ceremony for a class of Hamas police cadets.

While the assessment in Jerusalem is that Hamas's military wing has to a large extent survived the initial onslaught, albeit a bit bruised, the police have taken a mighty blow. And that is not insignificant, because it is through the police that Hamas has been able to enforce order in the Gaza Strip.

And order is important if you want to rule.

On the second day, the IDF targeted the smuggling tunnels from Sinai into Gaza, tunnels that not only are used to bring in missiles and explosives, but also goods and cash that the residents of the Gaza Strip have come to rely on.

The third day was marked by attacks on the Islamic University, and on the homes of Hamas leaders and the symbols of power.

The fourth day was marked by a destruction of Hamas government offices.

Israel is going after the trappings of governance, of power, of control, of rule. And the reason is the belief that the force that may eventually sweep Hamas from power is not Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah, but pure anarchy.

If Hamas cannot rule, if it cannot provide the people with what they need, if the leaders are in hiding, if anarchy reigns, then Hamas's legitimacy is delivered a major blow.

And this, to a large degree, explains Israel's targets. Jerusalem wants to hit Hamas's ability to rule, it wants to encourage anarchy that would threaten the organization.

Israel's opening of the Gaza crossings to allow in humanitarian aid contributes somewhat to this sense of anarchy, because it makes Hamas look unable to govern. If the Palestinians must rely on Israel's green light to let food aid in from third countries, then that undercuts Hamas's argument that it is able to serve its public.

But it's not only Hamas that is afraid of losing its valuable toehold - so is Iran.

Hamas has achieved something in Gaza that Hizbullah has yet to attain in Lebanon: complete control, the unimpeded rule of the Islamic fundamentalists. And it's a great base, a great jumping-off point, for further designs both on Israel and on Egypt.

Special attention should be paid to statements coming out of Teheran these days, because it may be possible to see signals in them of when Hamas might be on the verge of "crying uncle."

When Iran gets increasingly hysterical about the need for international intervention to stop the bloodshed, it is a sign that it is worried that its client is about to lose its grip on Gaza - something against Teheran's interests.

In the year and a half that Hamas has controlled Gaza, the organization has tried to create the impression that it is not a gang, not a terrorist organization, but rather a responsible party that is the head of a regime able to govern, able to maintain law and order and able to provide essential services.

When it loses its ability to do this, when it loses its control of the situation, when its loses its grip on Gaza, then its legitimacy may be diminished in the eyes of its own people.

Palestinian apologists have argued since the elections that brought Hamas to power in the PA in 2006 that the Palestinian people did not really buy into Hamas's extremist ideology, that they didn't really want a Hamas government, but rather, they were just fed up with Fatah's corruption and ineffectiveness, and voted for Hamas because they wanted a government that could rule.

But Israel seems now to be betting that if Hamas can no longer govern effectively, then its public legitimacy may wane. And that, Jerusalem believes, is something that genuinely does scare Hamas. Israel is trying to push that process along, one reason why one of the few morsels thrown to the press from the security cabinet meeting Wednesday was Diskin's assessment that Hamas's control, its ability to govern, was hit - and hit hard.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 07:02 am
Hamas was democratically elected: almost immediately the country was blockaded. Surely the problems aren't helped by poverty, I point out that wealthy countries tend to have less racial tensions.
I still maintain that there is no justification for bombing civilians: the Israelis are bombing the government buildings and the University. There is no evidence that either of these places were used to launch missiles from.
I can't see how Israel thinks that this will help.
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 07:03 am
The Jerusalem Post is not an unbiased source.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 07:30 am
@Fountofwisdom,
Neither side is actually interested in peace or else there would have been peace by now. Israel don't want to have peace because they keep building more and more settlements encroaching more and more on land that by international law is not theirs. Hamas don't want to have peace because they consider Israel to have occupied their country even in Israel and should not exist at all. This fight will never end, Hamas or other Palestinians will continue to fire rockets or anything else they can get their hands on, they may be temporarily set back since Israel bombed the underground tunnels beneath the wall, but they will eventually get around it again, and Israel will continue to suppress Palestine while building more settlements. Neither side has anything to gain by giving in. I submit that even if Palestine was to completely stop firing rockets, Israel would still keep on building more settlements or not disbanding those already illegal and would continue to suppress Palestine. For that reason Hamas or any other militant group has no incentive to quit firing rockets and at least trying to fight for their freedom.

Also there is an inherent unfair advantage for the Palestinian side because Israel has been receiving so much aid and weapons from all these years from the US and other countries would not want to openly give Palestinians weapons or aid for fear of offending the US.

So far all the peace plans have not been too balanced giving more advantage to Israel than to Palestine.

All the arguments about whose land it is or whose fault it is really don't matter if the two sides see it there way that is the way they will conduct their business.

I also see this argument as fruitless and any side has long been drawn and anything anybody says will not make a difference to the opposing side and any evidence will be biased or without merit.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 07:36 am
I believe that HAmas saw itself becoming marginalized as the cease fire went on. SO they broke it first. PERIOD. No other arguments are valid.

Even the newly scripted cease fire (authored by HAmas) mentions not one jot that Israel was first shot at by Hamas. The cease fire is silent on everything except the condemnation of Israels retaliation (Hamas calls Israels action unilateral aggression)

revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 07:43 am
@farmerman,
All the while during the cease fire, Israel has been building more settlements and barricading Gaza into inhuman suffering depriving them of a way to live in basic human conditions.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:03 am
It's a tragic situation which has been going on for generations. When two people want to stand on the same piece of dirt, but not touch each other, and they refuse to back down, a fight's gonna break out. It's just inevitable.

Some piece of that equation has to change. Either they agree to stand on different pieces of dirt, or they agree to touch each other (coexist peacefully), or someone backs down, or one obliterates the other.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:35 am
@revel,
when did you return from Gaza?
By your post, I take it that its OK for HAmas to just fire rockets into the Israeli side with impunity? am I right?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:41 am
@revel,
Its not up to the Govt of Israel to provide a damn thing to the people of Gaza.
Thats up to the duly elected govt of Gaza.
That happens to be Hamas.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:56 am
@mysteryman,
I'm not sure if you know the whys and hows about the situation at the border crossings, the wall to Egypt, the sea blockade etc .

We - that's our local Catholic and Evangelical parishes - are supporting the Christian communities and small businesses in Gaza. However, it all relies on the Israelian athorities (trade ministry, customs) if they can export. (We were, for example, really short in handcrafted cribs this year.)

But since most of their houses are destroyed by now (according to the German diplomatic representative, whose house is totally bombed as well), that trade will stop completely, at least medium term.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 11:46 am
@revel,
Some time ago, Israel dismantled all Jewish settlements in Gaza. In appreciation, Hamas mounted more attacks than ever, and even destroyed the large and productive greenhouses left by the Israelis. Moreover, Hamas declared its everlasting enmity toward Israel, pledging to destroy the country.

Notwithstanding the above, Israel continued to aid Gaza. Has any other country in history similarly aided an enemy? I doubt it.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 11:57 am
@Advocate,
Quote:
Notwithstanding the above, Israel continued to aid Gaza. Has any other country in history similarly aided an enemy? I doubt it.

wow, that is some feat of logical gymnastics.....if a country occupies and completely controls a people and a land you would turn their legally recognized humanitarian obligation into largess.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 12:02 pm
@revel,
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/world/middleeast/01mideast.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

Israel rejects cease-fire, but offers Gaza aid.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 07:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Notwithstanding the above, Israel continued to aid Gaza. Has any other country in history similarly aided an enemy? I doubt it.

wow, that is some feat of logical gymnastics.....if a country occupies and completely controls a people and a land you would turn their legally recognized humanitarian obligation into largess.


Israel presently is not occupying Gaza, and they do not control the people; Hamas controls Gaza and its people. Humanitarian aid is thusly largess. It is also maintaining the moral high ground, since Israelis do not dance in the streets when Gaza civilians are casualties.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 07:53 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

It is up to hamas, as the govt, to provide jobs, food, electricity, fuel, and every other thing that their citizens need.


Well, that's exactly why they attack Israel ... if you believe their argumentation, that is. (Otherwise - you're certainly aware of the geography - only Israel can provide it, at least under present circumstances.)


You have given fellow Muslim nation Egypt a free-pass?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:02 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

But since most of their houses are destroyed by now (according to the German diplomatic representative, whose house is totally bombed as well), that trade will stop completely, at least medium term.


Would one think Israel was aware of what the target was? Perhaps, there is a message here? I can only guess, but perhaps the message might be that Gaza is not the Sudetenland, and certain countries have lost the ethical right to be present and neutral?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:17 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Israel presently is not occupying Gaza, and they do not control the people; Hamas controls Gaza and its people. Humanitarian aid is thusly largess. It is also maintaining the moral high ground, since Israelis do not dance in the streets when Gaza civilians are casualties


You gotta be kidding, Israel controls movement not only in and out but for the most part with-in, controls food and medicine in, controls the water, controls the power, controls the currency allowed in.....Palestine is a large primitive prison where a inmate group nominally controls the inside of the prison while the guards impose the incarceration and their will upon the prisoners at will. Any you want to argue that Gaza is not entitled to the rights of an occupied people? Seriously?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 08:22 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Israel presently is not occupying Gaza, and they do not control the people; Hamas controls Gaza and its people. Humanitarian aid is thusly largess. It is also maintaining the moral high ground, since Israelis do not dance in the streets when Gaza civilians are casualties


You gotta be kidding, Israel controls movement not only in and out but for the most part with-in, controls food and medicine in, controls the water, controls the power, controls the currency allowed in.....Palestine is a large primitive prison where a inmate group nominally controls the inside of the prison while the guards impose the incarceration and their will upon the prisoners at will. Any you want to argue that Gaza is not entitled to the rights of an occupied people? Seriously?


Why did other Arab countries not help to develop the infrastructure of Gaza. Why did it default to Israel to support basic infrastructural needs. Sounds like a set-up to me.
0 Replies
 
 

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