64
   

Let's get rid of the Electoral College

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 08:44 am
@Fountofwisdom,
Fountofwisdom wrote:

JTT, please go jam your head into the toilet.
You either lack the intelligence
or the diligence necessary to tell men what to do. Thank u

Awesome use of........ American.
At least David doesn't pretend he can use English,
Which is the language of Shakespeare: not Ice cube.

Ice cannot speak any language, in any shape, cubes or otherwise.
I will stipulate that here in NY we speak AMERICAN,
the language whose Manifest Destiny it is to prevail thru out the world.





David
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 08:50 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Over to you Fountie.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 08:51 am
@Fountofwisdom,


U have my permission
to take your head out of the toilet now, JTT
.

I don t mean to drown u.

Now get a nice fluffy, clean English towel there and just relax.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 09:30 am
@Fountofwisdom,
Fountofwisdom wrote:

Quote:
SimpleDave is arguing that he is a republican and therefore right.
Plus he believes Americans are too selfish
and short sighted to elect a government.

THAT is NOT what I believe.
It is my position
that Americans shoud be MORE selfish.

It is my position
that Americans shoud be MORE selfish.


It is my position
that Americans shoud be MORE selfish.


It is my position
that Americans shoud be MORE selfish.
Let me be CLEAR on that point.



Quote:

He mocks the words of Abe Lincoln.

I do not approve of slavery; I 'd have left the blacks undisturbed in Africa.
Having said that: Lincoln never did ME any favors.
I owe him nothing.






Quote:

He says the oath of allegiance is idiotic.

That is a lie; another lie.
I did not SAY that the oath of allegiance is idiotic;
I pointed out that it was written by a socialist.
I will deliberate upon whether to say that it is "idiotic" in the future.




Quote:

I have never bad mouths Americans,
in fact I freely admit that Mickey Mouse is the pinnacle of American culture,

I surmise that English is not your first language.
U might consider LEARNING how to use English
before employing it in debate.

Ideally, that will include logical fonetic spelling.





David
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 01:32 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Quote:
You make some fair and interesting points: Can I now press you on whether the system should be speeded up: and what steps could be taken to prevent the queues and chaos: which surely no one wants:


If there is one point that you've made in previous posts with which I can quite agree it's that the American system -- from primaries to general elction -- is waaay too time consuming. This past campaign seemed to last years and years, not months. I was quite ready to eschew politics of any sort by the time it was over. The question, however, is not whether the process should be speeded up but, rather, how in the world one goes about doing that.

First of all, the selection of candidates is largely a party process. As there is no provision made for even the existence of political parties in the US Constitution, there is no viable way to regulate this by law. Congress may pass legislation regarding such matters as private donations to political parties but, beyond that, it can do nothing in the way of telling the parties how their candidate is to be selected and presented to the general public. Hence, the primary system becomes somewhat tedious. I generally don't vote in primaries at all as I am unwilling to register as being a supporter of any particular party.

Secondly, the rules governing how a general election is to be run are a matter for each state to decide. The day of voting is mandated by Federal law, but precisely how each state conducts that election is a local matter. The divergence from state to state is great. In some places computerized voting machines are in use, others have paper ballots which you mark with a ball-point pen just like people did 100 and more years ago. As a result, some places have long lines, others none. Does this lead to some chicanery? Undoubtedly, from time to time and place to place. George W. Bush's team was quite openly accused of rigging the vote in certain localities (Florida and Ohio specifically) but in the absence of evidence which would hold up in a court of law, such accusations become meaningless.

Quote:
Seeing as your argument is that mostly the system produces the same result as one person one vote then, surely that would be the better system: being cheaper,simpler and easier.


It might be a better system. I have never been a supporter of the Electoral College method. However, since this method is mandated by the Constitution, it would require a constitutional amendment to bring about a change. At present, at least, there is no prospect of such an amendment being successfully implemented. The major reason for this is that states with a relatively small population would not wish to risk being overwhelmed by voters in states with large urban populations. (If you read Okie's posts you will see this sentiment expressed quite clearly.) As it takes a two-thirds vote by both Houses to bring about a constitutional change, I think you can see where the idea is not exactly tenable.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 02:15 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

okie wrote:
I think this point is just one point of the hundreds that could be made in favor of the electoral college.

If there are hundreds of arguments that could be made in favor of the electoral college, why can't you come up with more than one?

Its not a matter of can't, its a matter of wasting valuable time on closed minds.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 02:34 pm
@Merry Andrew,
Quote:
If there is one point that you've made in previous posts with which I can quite agree it's that the American system -- from primaries to general elction -- is waaay too time consuming.


It is not waaay too time consuming for Media which gets most of the campaign money and which conditions your national psyche. It is too short for Media. Easy programmes, easy money, easy talk ops.

And there's very little chance of changing it or any of the main aspects of it.

I'm glad to see that you're up and about Andy.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 02:36 pm
Why would anybody who has been elected by the system change it?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 02:41 pm
To refer to Joe as being close-minded is unfair, and it could be said to be disingenuous. Joe has shown a willingness to discuss all aspects of this question, and though the tenor of his remarks may not always be to everyone's taste, it is my experience that he is always civil. I support the continuance of the Electoral College, but i cannot help but comment that i don't find Okie to have been a convincing advocate of the system.

I would add to MA's comments that not only would it require two thirds of both houses of Congress to frame a constitutional amendment to alter or abolish the Electoral College, it requires ratification by three fourths of the states to amend the constitution, which virtually guarantees that there will be no amendment to alter or abolish the Electoral College.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 02:41 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
Does it have to be an actual example, or would you accept a hypothetical?


I'd find a realistic hypothetical very convincing.

Quote:
My hypothetical would revolve around a candidate promising to create jobs and money in highly populated urban centers. Perhaps a Jesse Jackson type candidate promising to tax the farmers and suburbanites so the poor urban dwellers can get cheap energy, welfare, etc.


This would represent a valid example of tyranny of the majority to me if the president had such powers. But he doesn't, and only the House of Representatives can do this. Thusly it is simply not something the electoral college protects against, it's something the constitution protects against through the institution of the House.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 03:11 pm
@Merry Andrew,
Merry Andrew wrote:

Quote:
You make some fair and interesting points: Can I now press you on whether the system should be speeded up: and what steps could be taken to prevent the queues and chaos: which surely no one wants:


If there is one point that you've made in previous posts with which I can quite agree it's that the American system -- from primaries to general elction -- is waaay too time consuming. This past campaign seemed to last years and years, not months. I was quite ready to eschew politics of any sort by the time it was over. The question, however, is not whether the process should be speeded up but, rather, how in the world one goes about doing that.

Speeding up the election process may or may not be a worthy objective, that's open to debate. But it is quite clear that the electoral college isn't to blame for the length of modern presidential campaigns (and that would have been readily apparent if FoW knew anything at all about the US electoral system). There is no question that, if the US switched to popular elections for the presidency, the campaigning process would last just as long as it does now.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 03:12 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

okie wrote:
I think this point is just one point of the hundreds that could be made in favor of the electoral college.

If there are hundreds of arguments that could be made in favor of the electoral college, why can't you come up with more than one?

Its not a matter of can't, its a matter of wasting valuable time on closed minds.

Or, in other words, you can't.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 05:59 pm
@joefromchicago,
Well Joe-- I'm quite sure that there are at least two hundred people, and that's "hundreds", who get a living out of it or a power kick or just a job.

Each one is a reason. So there you are. I can.

The main reason is that you're stuck with it and it won't be changed. People are the reason.

And there's no alternative offered so getting rid of it leaves nothing.
okie
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 06:04 pm
@spendius,
When the Democrats win an election due to electoral college, then the Joes of the world will magically change their minds. Then the college will be a stroke of genius.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 06:52 pm
When it comes to minority Presidents, the Electoral College seems only to have favored Republicans. The first Republican President, Abraham Lincoln, trounced this three opponents in the Electoral College--but although he got more popular votes than any of the other three, he got just less than 40% of the vote. Rutherford Hayes in 1876, and Benjamin Harrison in 1888--both Republicans--defeated Democrats in the Electoral College, while taking less of the popular vote than their opponents.

The less said about Baby Bush, Florida and the Supreme Court, the better.
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 09:30 pm
@Setanta,
One of the problems with the American constitution is that Americans are loath to change it.
It has almost become a scared text like the Bible. People talk of the "vision of the founding fathers."
I see any constitution as an instruction manual, An instruction manual 200 hundred years old is out of date. I take issue with the vision of a group of all white, all male, slave traders has any relevance today. They may have been wonderful people in their context, however their beliefs on say how to mange to internet are probably less valid.
England is hampered by tradition. The legal system is hopelessly outdated. We get cases where religious groups find some law passed under Oliver Cromwell and then tries to enforce it. Some of these laws are so daft that no one has bothered to repeal them. It is still legal to kill a Scotsman in York with a bow and arrow. Eating mince pies at Christmas is outlawed. So is watching sport on a Sunday.
I accept that I am iconoclastic, however a review of the constitution every ten years or so would prevent it getting too daft.
I think all systems have a natural inertia which is not necesarily bad. If you are unhappy with abandonning electoral college at least reform it.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 09:45 pm
@Merry Andrew,
The law should be there to help not hinder things. If your argument is that the system cant be changed because of the constitution and the law, even tho it is plainly daft, then I say change the constitution and the law.
In England we exclusively have pencil and paper. There are no queues. Anywhere. The counting is done in 48 hours.
The queues seem to me disproportionally to affect poor and black communities, therefore I would suggest they are more about disenfranchising certain groups. I cant prove this of course, but it gives rise to suspicions. I will accept this is down to incompetance. In both cases it is unacceptable.
I would absolutely be screaming if someone in England was telling me we have to keep the status quo because change is too difficult.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 09:49 pm
@Setanta,
Any system that is so biassed against change also maintains injustices. A company run this way would go bankrupt. Surely a system that is so stifling and turgid should be changed.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 09:53 pm
@spendius,
We have the same problem here: the labour party moaned about how unfair the system is, and how it needed changing, until it elected them, then all promises of change were sidelined.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 11:38 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

When the Democrats win an election due to electoral college, then the Joes of the world will magically change their minds. Then the college will be a stroke of genius.

Show me where I came out in favor of the electoral college.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/18/2024 at 09:08:48