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California Voters Approve Gay-Marriage Ban

 
 
RexRed
 
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 02:40 pm
Well wasn't that progressive of them...
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Type: Discussion • Score: 60 • Views: 181,380 • Replies: 4,464

 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 02:55 pm
@RexRed,
This is the second time they've done so. The most amazing thing though is California, often described as the very heart of American liberalism, voted conservative on just about every one of the propositions out there. They did approve assisted suicide, but I think voted against every other 'liberal' proposal. I honestly think the pendulum is beginning to swing back from the far left. We can always hope.

Once the traditional marriage is safe, then I am confident the people will get busy to provide a way for gay couples to enjoy the same protections as married people do, and I think that will pass with scarcely more than a murmor.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 02:56 pm
@Foxfyre,
What is wrong with assisted suicide anyway?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 02:58 pm
@maporsche,
I've been struggling with that one a long time Maporsche. There is a part of me that wants a Dr. Kavorkian should I be in the situation that I have no quality of life remaining and am ready to go. But there is the conservative side of me that does not want doctors to be in the business of killing people or to see themselves in any role other than preserving life and making it better.

So I'm still struggling with my own personal sense of morality on that one. And I have not arrived at a firm conviction one way or the other. I imagine many others also are conflicted on that one which is probably why it passed.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:05 pm
... and there won't be a ban on abortion in Colorado and South Dakato (I'd started earlier).

Abortion and same-sex marriage are key issues for conservatives, but not when they loose one case, it seems.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:08 pm
Its interesting how conservatives profess smaller government and laissez faire attitudes. EXCEPT for all the issues relating to a persons private life.
A bit disengenuous ID say
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:23 pm
@farmerman,
Did you have something specific in mind there Farmerman or are you speaking in broad undefinable generalities that you can't support? Or is it disingenuous to define what we believe to be right and what we believe to be wrong? I suppose liberals are different when they do that? If so, could you explain that please?
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:26 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
. . . or are you speaking in broad undefinable generalities that you can't support?


Why should he adopt your rhetorical style? It hasn't worked for you.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:35 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I've been struggling with that one a long time Maporsche. There is a part of me that wants a Dr. Kavorkian should I be in the situation that I have no quality of life remaining and am ready to go. But there is the conservative side of me that does not want doctors to be in the business of killing people or to see themselves in any role other than preserving life and making it better.

So I'm still struggling with my own personal sense of morality on that one. And I have not arrived at a firm conviction one way or the other. I imagine many others also are conflicted on that one which is probably why it passed.

Additionally, sick, old people who weren't in great pain might come under a certain amount of pressure from their families to commit suicide to save them money. The whole thing is a horrible slippery slope.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:39 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Additionally, sick, old people who weren't in great pain might come under a certain amount of pressure from their families to commit suicide to save them money. The whole thing is a horrible slippery slope.


Any source that this happened? In countries where assisted suicide is legal since a couple of years?

Or is/will be the procedure in the USA so laissez-faire that such won't be noted?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:48 pm
@Brandon9000,
Good point, Brandon. There is that sticky wicket that the right to die becomes a duty to die. Since I think the best society is one that celebrates and values life, I hope we never come to that. But I do remain conflicted over the general concept. I would like to think people should have the right to quit when there is absolutely no quality of life left and no chance it will be regained. Maybe if it was via court order? I don't know.

I'm still thinking on it.
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:54 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Additionally, sick, old people who weren't in great pain might come under a certain amount of pressure from their families to commit suicide to save them money. The whole thing is a horrible slippery slope.


Any source that this happened? In countries where assisted suicide is legal since a couple of years?

Or is/will be the procedure in the USA so laissez-faire that such won't be noted?

Of course it won't be noted. The family pressure would usually be subtle.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:54 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Good point, Brandon. There is that sticky wicket that the right to die becomes a duty to die.


But certainly YOU have a source where this already happened?

I mean, there a lot online about the procedure e.g. in the Netherlands( voluntary euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide lawful since April 2002 but permitted by the courts since l984).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:55 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Of course it won't be noted. The family pressure would usually be subtle.


You seem to know a lot about the procedure .... or to have a very low opinion about doctors.
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:58 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Of course it won't be noted. The family pressure would usually be subtle.


You seem to know a lot about the procedure.

No, it's just ordinary common sense. How in God's name are you going to know if someone who requests suicide has had subtle pressure applied? Once the state sanctions assisted suicide, who knows where it might end?
OGIONIK
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 04:01 pm
@Brandon9000,
what a joke. stupid prejudice.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 04:04 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

No, it's just ordinary common sense. How in God's name are you going to know if someone who requests suicide has had subtle pressure applied?


Because the family doctor knows what a family does know: the family.



Brandon9000 wrote:
Once the state sanctions assisted suicide, who knows where it might end?

Well, when you look at situation in Switzerland, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Sweden ... and how those countries ended - it really looks like if those are falling since years into a bottomless abyss, isn't it?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 04:09 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
(Actually, I think that a good palliative care should be the first to be expanded before thinking to assist an suicide.

But people still should have a choice.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 08:37 am
@OGIONIK,
OGIONIK wrote:

what a joke. stupid prejudice.

Were you correct, I suspect you would have given an actual argument, as I did.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 08:45 am
@RexRed,
Finally, a reason to consider moving back to California.
 

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