California Voters Approve Gay-Marriage Ban

@Brandon9000,

You're welcome to oppose it for any reason you wish.

But don't expect anything but derision if you publicly announce you oppose gay marriage because you think it's icky.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Alright, then please answer. The citizens pass a law just because they want it that way and it doesn't contradict a higher law. On what grounds will the courts throw it out?

The law cannot stand unless you show that the group you are looking to limit is causing harm to someone. You can't pass laws which discriminate against groups without providing compelling reasons why. Thus, you couldn't pass a law that doesn't allow Civic drivers to use the fast lane, just b.c you and others FELT like it; you would have to show compelling reason WHY, or the courts would likely throw that law out.

But they would throw it out because it contradicts a higher law, and not because the citizens passed it based on preference. Tell me on what grounds they would throw out a law that was passed just because the citizens want it that didn't contradict another higher law.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Let's see if you're right. Please give me an example of an explanation for why something is right or wrong that is based on logic, and isn't proven by reference to a prior idea of right and wrong which itself is based on emotion or religion.

Murder. It is not wrong because of my opinion of it, or because of some invisible dude in the sky's opinion, but because it causes major harm to individuals (and not just the victim himself) and instability to society as a whole. That's not based on emotion, but Practicality. You don't need to know a thing about history, religion, or ethics to see the practical reason for this law.

Cycloptichorn

You've shown that allowing murder is impractical. You were supposed to be demonstrating that it's wrong.

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@Brandon9000,

I can think of lots of laws that would be thrown out. Cyclo gave the example of Honda Civics being denied the ability to use the passing lane.

Sodomy laws have been tossed out recently. You can't legislate what consenting adults do in the bedroom.

It's trivial.

Pretty much any example I come up with, you'll jump on and say "that doesn't fit my hypothetical".

So you come up with the law, and I'll tell you why it would be thrown out, m'kay?

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@Brandon9000,

Quote:

But they would throw it out because it contradicts a higher law, and not because the citizens passed it based on preference. Tell me on what grounds they would throw out a law that was passed just because the citizens want it that didn't contradict another higher law.

It would be thrown out for a variety of reasons, but primarily due to the fact that the proponents of the law cannot show what is being harmed by that action.

In America, people retain freedoms unless they are shown to be harmful to others; this is a large part of the basis by which we judge laws. Our entire legal system is not built upon 'appeals to higher authority'; judges can and do judge cases purely on their own merits.

Quote:

You've shown that allowing murder is impractical. You were supposed to be demonstrating that it's wrong.

I did demonstrate how it is wrong, for actions which are impractical for society as a whole - in that they cause harm to members of said society as well as the larger whole - ARE wrong. You have not been able to display any reasoning showing Gay marriage is harmful to anyone, other than your bigoted sense of aesthetics.

Cycloptichorn

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Frustrating that it is taking so long to solve this same-sex marriage problem, but it is inevitable. Surely Conservatives realize this. As their population grows older and dies off, my generation will emerge triumphant on these issues - and there is absolutely nothing that the older bigots who make up much of our electorate can do about it.

http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/11/05/support-for-same-sex-marriage-by-age-and-state/

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/age1-1.jpg

In 10-15 years, the majority of the alliance against gay marriage will be dead or dying.

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

it is inevitable. Surely Conservatives realize this. As their population grows older and dies off

Pretty much applies to any issue, too, which is why Conservatism is such a ridiculous "ideology". All it has to offer is foot-dragging.

Some foot-dragging is good, because it keeps people from rushing into things, but foot-dragging for its own sake is just kinda silly.

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@DrewDad,

Then how did prohibition pass?

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@mysteryman,

As discussed, that was a Constitutional amendment. But I don't think there's enough support for a national amendment (pro or con) on gay marriage right now.

Look at Cyclo's graph, and you can see it's inevitable, though. It's not a matter of if , it's a matter of when.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Funny that someone voted down your post. As if by removing it from their screen, they can deny the truth of it.

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So, just to set things straight, which marriages are beautiful???
There are plenty of marriages that have abuse, cheating, isolation, humiliation, hate, then divorce, which is normally pretty ugly.
With a 50% divorce rate, It seems this "beautiful" institution maybe in need of a makeover.

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@DrewDad,

Thanks for pointing that out I gave Cyc another vote to spite them... I voted you up too Smile

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@Ceili,

Conservatives need a makeover...

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I actually find most heterosexual marriage repulsive. Not due to the reproductive aspects but due to how they have cheapened the institution with their bachelor and bridal parties. Strippers, lap dances and wild abandoned drinking to such a point that they don’t even remember walking down the isles to Pachebel’s canon the next day. I didn’t see any of that tripe in any of the televised gay weddings I saw publicized. It is no wonder why these hetero marriages end in such disaster while they drag their children though divorce court and some sleazy decadent episode of Jerry Springer.

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@Ceili,

The divorce rate isn't 50%.

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Your right, but the data is skewed for several reasons. The annual divorce rate is less than marriages rates, however some states do not report divorces. While the divorce rate is dropping, so are marriages. Here are some stats on marriage/divorce.

59 percent of marriages for women under the age of 18 end in divorce within 15 years. The divorce rate drops to 36 percent for those married at age 20 or older. " "Cohabitation, Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage in the United States," M.D. Bramlett and W.D. Mosher

60 percent of marriages for couples between the ages of 20 and 25 end in divorce. " National Center for Health Statistics

50 percent of all marriages in which the brides are 25 or older result in a failed marriage. " National Center for Health Statistics

65 percent of altar-bound men and women live together before getting married. " Bride's Magazine

Research indicates that people who live together prior to getting married are more likely to have marriages that end in divorce. " The Boston Herald

A recent study on cohabitation concluded that after five to seven years, only 21 percent of unmarried couples were still living together. " The Boston Herald

55 percent of cohabitating couples get married within five years of moving in together. Forty percent of couples who live together break up within that same time period. " Annual Review of Sociology

Children of divorce have a higher risk of divorce when they marry, and an even higher risk if the person they marry comes from a divorced home. One study found that when the wife alone had experienced a parental divorce, her odds of divorce increased to 59 percent. When both spouses experienced parental divorce, the odds of divorce nearly tripled to 189 percent. " Journal of Marriage and the Family

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I actually feel sorry for heterosexuals because of the state of heterosexual marriage today. I think that heterosexuals feel trapped in the way traditional marriage is portrayed, stigmatized and enforced by the intimidation of others i.e. parents, siblings, other family members, clergy etc..

People live with spouses they loathe and the children suffer listening to them bickering and having physical altercations day in day out and perhaps amicable divorce is a much better option in many cases...

I also believe that gays could bring some class to the institution rather than degrade it. Perhaps then heterosexuals wouldn't be so thoughtless and inclined be marrying in Las Vegas one night and get divorced the next day. They would have homosexual counterpart role models to compete with. That divorce rate, what ever percentage it is, would not be taken as lightly as it is now.

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I'm married. My parent have been married just shy of 45 years. I'm hoping I beat the odds.
I'm not against marriage, I just think that too many people are protecting it for the wrong reasons. If two people love each other and want to make the commitment, have at 'er. I don't think anyone should stand in the way of gay marriage because the arguments just don't stand up. There is are many things wrong with traditional marriage which they seem to ignore.

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@Ceili,

Much good luck on your marriage. Smile

When marriage becomes all about the gown, the ring value, silly superstitions and which side of the family pays for the wedding suddenly it is not a marriage any longer but it becomes an extraneous conglomeration of irrelevant traditions leeching off the marriage of simple pure love.

I am pointing out that some heteros have degraded marriage and I am repulsed by that. I find pity in some cases and compassion in other cases for married heterosexuals.

I don't hate heterosexuals or people of the opposite sex (me being gay I thought I should clarify that). I acknowledge that heterosexuals have it very tough especially when marriage starts to implode.

I believe that the state has really no real business in marriage other than making it easy for married couples to maintain their mutual vows of love throughout the various phases of their live. States should un-intrusively assist marriage and have some reasonable guidelines.

Marriage is between two unrelated consenting adults and their own personal deity. Divorce needs to be decided by states to insure justice for potential divorcees but not because the state has any authority over the actual bond itself.

The state should have no real authority to either restrict or impose marriage (although they certainly have tried..) By restricting interracial marriage in the past and now marriage equality of gays and lesbians they have surely overstepped their authority before.

Now the political machine spreads their fear, bigotry and radical religious hatred to perpetuate the state's authority over those seeking to be bound together in love by an "androgynous god". This authority exercised by the state is out of bounds when relating to those who desire to enter into such a mutual and spiritual union of two compatible souls.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

I'm married. My parent have been married just shy of 45 years. I'm hoping I beat the odds.
I'm not against marriage, I just think that too many people are protecting it for the wrong reasons. If two people love each other and want to make the commitment, have at 'er. I don't think anyone should stand in the way of gay marriage because the arguments just don't stand up.

There is are many things wrong with traditional marriage which they seem to ignore.

U mean traditional marriage shoud not be legal ?
(Clearly, that 'd reduce the divorce rate.) Most insightful !

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@RexRed,

I have always agreed that government shoud have no role in marriage.
As citizens, we shoud all look DOWN on government with such contempt and loathing
as not even to consider letting the damned thing affect us in our personal lives.

I do not intend this to include government assisting in self defense,
if any person violently attacks any other person, related or not.

David

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California Voters Approve Gay-Marriage Ban

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