Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2008 06:37 pm
Interesting media firestorm today.

I don't blame the Obama camp about being pissed how his comments re 'lipstick on a pig' have been twisted by the McCain campaign into a case of sexism. But watching Obama work the crowd when he made the comment - they way he paused for a moment - and the way in which the crowd responded (laughter and clapping), he might have been more sensitive.

And isn't this a bedrock of libs/progressives? Haven't they been rabid about telling all of us that words matter? That we shan't not talk in 'code' and to weigh our words carefuly lest we offend a potential victim (of which there are many, we are told). And if perhaps we slip up, good luck on receiving the benifit of the doubt (if one is a conservative).

Now, compare this to the knucklehead congressman who called Obama and his wife 'uppity'. He claims it was in reference to their social standing, didn't know the term could be construed as racial, etc. Libs/progressives have demanded an apology, which said knucklehead has done.

When his audience obviously took Obama's comments about pig/lipstick as a shot at Palin, should he have corrected the situation then? I think he actually worked for the line, with his pause and all.

Should he apologize?

And as a side note: I was discussing Palin with a friend, and she agreed. We have not seen the loony left so enraged and in a tiff about a Repub since Reagan. She thinks it is a mark of fear...
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Type: Discussion • Score: 8 • Views: 8,554 • Replies: 125

 
Phoenix32890
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2008 06:48 pm
@A Lone Voice,
Quote:
Now, compare this to the knucklehead congressman who called Obama and his wife 'uppity'. He claims it was in reference to their social standing, didn't know the term could be construed as racial, etc. Libs/progressives have demanded an apology, which said knucklehead has done.


I don't know how old you are, but your age may well make a difference in the perception of what happened. Years ago, there WAS common racist expression, which was "uppity n*****". This was a reference to a black person who put on airs, or as a racist would say, "didn't know their place". I can see where some people might rightfully be offended by that particular remark.

Quote:
And as a side note: I was discussing Palin with a friend, and she agreed. We have not seen the loony left so enraged and in a tiff about a Repub since Reagan. She thinks it is a mark of fear...


I agree with your friend. I think that the left thought that they had the election sewed up. Now Palin comes along, and the equation has changed. Fear? I think that the left is scared shitless!
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2008 07:27 pm
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=WMPYkNQlJMM
Click the link to see McCain say the lipstick thing about Hillary.
There is another video of Cheney using the phrase.
Plus, Obama was not speaking about the Republian VP candidate.
rosborne979
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2008 07:38 pm
You can put lipstick on lots of things, like the economy, healthcare and energy policy, and they are all still the same too. So I wish the discussion would just get back to the real issues.

Political campaigns are supposed to be a bloodbath of words, so nobody should be surprised by any of this.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2008 07:39 pm
Using 'uppity' in reference to a black man/wife could indeed have been an innocent criticism with no racial overtones in mind of any kind. Lord willing, someday we'll get to the point that we are not racist and we no longer have to carefully choose what words are acceptable to praise or insult different people of different races than ourselves. But the fact is that a white person referring to a black person as 'uppity' is either ignorant or extremely naive and will almost certainly draw quick and hostile criticism.

That's pretty much how I see Obama's gaffe with the lipstick and pig thing. I think he is far too savvy a politician to call Sarah Palin a pig. But given the constant references to lipstick in the media following Sarah Palin's speech at the convention, for him to use the metaphor of a lipstick on a pig was a stupid stupid gaffe. And he had to know it when the audience reacted like it did. He should have put a stop to the misunderstanding on the spot. He didn't.

Now the Obama campaign whines that the phrase is taken out of context and used in a McCain ad. Even after they got a lot of mileage misrepresenting what McCain meant about keeping troops in Iraq and completely distorting his answer to the question about how many houses he had.

It's all part and parcel of politics as usual in the USA.
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 10:56 am
@edgarblythe,
Except....

Have you actually watched Obama's comments, edgar? More importantly, did you see how the crowd behind him responded when he paused after his 'lipstick on a pig' statement?

Was Obama calling Palin a pig? No. Was he going for the cheap laugh and applause - much like the comic saying "I like weed!" during a set - when he made the comment? I think so.

If not, should he recognize that his remarks were insensitive? Isn't that what libs/progressives have said we should do? Isn't that what they have demanded?

Yet again, though, we see the progressive double standard.

And yet again, the libs/progressives here view a post but refuse to engage when it isn't a slam dunk in their favor...
parados
 
  6  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:24 am
@A Lone Voice,
The only video I have seen is cut off after his comment lipstick statement. Why do you think that is? His next comment about old fish is part of the thought.

Watching the video it is impossible to think the phrase was directed at Palin in such a way that he was calling Palin a pig. You would have to completely ignore the rest of his comment which clearly sets up the "lipstick on a pig" and the "old fish" statements. They only reinforce what he said earlier about McCain's stance on the issues.



Please explain in context how his remarks are "insensitive."


Your statement about a comic saying "I like weed" as being comparable shows you don't know much about how and why people think the lipstick statement may have been about Palin. The technique used by comedians and other speakers is to bring back a word or a phrase that was used earlier. This is what was done. "Lipstick" had been used by Palin in a joke in which she called herself a pitbull with lipstick. Obama used the word "lipstick" but not in the same way she did. While it may evoke Palin's use of the word it certainly doesn't refer to her as the pig. A comparable way for "I like weed" to work is if a previous comedian had done a riff on gardening and how they hated weeds. It is the use of the word in a different context that creates the response. Suddenly the first comedian no longer owns the weed image.

So..
Palin says what makes a pitbull respectable as a hockey mom is "lipstick."
Obama points out that putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it respectable but never mentions Palin. Yes, the listener can make a connection but it does NOT call Palin a pig.

Lipstick on a pit bull makes a hockey mom
lipstick on a pig means you still have a pig.

Obama's statement points out a large error in the thinking of Palin and McCain and does it by taking Palin's lipstick statement away from her. That is the real issue here. Palin's statement is no longer so cute because we see that lipstick doesn't solve every problem. There is nothing insensitive about it unless you are sensitive about a debate on the issues of how lipstick can and can't be used to hide problems.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:32 am
That leads back to the real reason for the false argument about Obama calling Palin a pig. Unless the GOP can take back the "lipstick" comment by discrediting Obama's statement completely they won't be able to use it any more.

So, they can put all the lipstick they want on their claim that Obama attacked Palin, their claim is still just a pig with lipstick and nothing more.

My recommendation is for every liberals to use the lipstick on a pig phrase in every discussion where they are pointing out errors. The way to combat it use the phrase correctly so many times that it becomes impossible for anyone to claim lipstick on a pig is calling anyone a pig.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:32 am
@parados,
Obama's statement is the largest error.

You can put lipstick on Obama, but he's still a pig.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:38 am
@parados,
You say
Quote:
Watching the video it is impossible to think the phrase was directed at Palin in such a way that he was calling Palin a pig.


Not impossible at all since the same video very clearly shows that the audience absolutely took it as a shot at Palin. And they liked it. Obama could not have missed that and he should have corrected the misperception on the spot in no uncertain terms. He didn't. He allowed them to cheer and whoop and holler at the implication and while they were still doing that he finished the thought with the eight-year old stinky fish. And that makes him guilty despite no evidence of original intent.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:44 am
@A Lone Voice,
The term "uppity" is always pejoritive. There is not a way to use the word in a neutral or positive context. It implies acting in a manner above your station or social class and directly implies that the person refered to is of a lower class. If a congressman called his wife uppity, he did her a real disservice. If he called Obama that, it was an intended insult. There are no other reasonable interpretations. I don't know how you can compare that to using a common folksy saying.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  5  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:55 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Using 'uppity' in reference to a black man/wife could indeed have been an innocent criticism with no racial overtones in mind of any kind.


yeah, a congressman from georgia would never use "uppity" to describe a black, would he? Laughing
 http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/37549/thumbs/s-WESTMORE-large.jpg

this guy's old enough to know exactly what it means to call a black person "uppity".
Quote:
Political consultant David Gergen, who has worked in both Republican and Democratic White Houses, said on ABC’s "This Week" that “As a native of the south, I can tell you, when you see this Charlton Heston ad, 'The One,' that's code for, 'He's uppity, he ought to stay in his place.' Everybody gets that who is from a Southern background.”


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/westmoreland-calls-obama-uppity-2008-09-04.html

and me being from a southern background, and still having a home in rural east tennessee, i know exactly what he meant.

and i don't like it.

so let's recap;

calling hillary a bitch - that's okay.

calling obama "uppity" - that's okay

obama calling mccain's policies a lipstick wearing pig - that's horrible and he should be whipped until he remembers his place.


A Lone Voice
 
  3  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:59 am
@parados,
For those who haven't seen the comments:

Count a two second pause, then: "...is like putting lipstick on a pig."

The crowd behind Obama, some with the dazed look some political crowds tend to take on, comes to life. They clap and laugh and carry on, enjoying Obama's wit.

They certainly got the 'joke', didn't they?

The word lipstick came into play when Palin used it in her speech. Answer this: If Palin hadn't used it a week earlier, would the Obama crowd have responded like they had?

It was your crowd, your audience, your supporters there. Own them.

When Palin said the only difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom is lipstick, she was trying to define herself to a part of Middle America.

When Obama, with his great timing and to the delight of his audience, said you can't put lipstick on a pig, he too defined himself to a portion of Middle America.

Check that. He didn't. His audience did it for him, though.

Hey, you must go to better comedy clubs then the dives I frequent. My comics, when they are bombing, will pull the drug or sex joke out of the blue to garner a much needed laugh...

Do his subsequent explanations make sense? They seem pretty construed. Sure he has used the comment before. But again, one look at his audience's reaction makes it pretty clear about the context in which his comment was taken. Obviously, from their reaction, they thought Obama was comparing Palin to a pig.

All of which comes back to my main point about libs/progressives: Hey, there's a perception of someone being insensitive to a potential victim here! Do something! Someone might have been insulted!

Isn't an apology forthcoming? Immediately? Isn't that how things are supposed to work?







H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 12:02 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
Obama (the uppity one) was referring to the lip stick wearing Palin (the chosen one).
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 12:06 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
If you know what was in the heart of a person using the term 'uppity', then I know what was in Obama's heart when he used "lipstick on a pig' in the wake of all the media references and cartoons and jokes and late night spoofs after Palin's speech at the convention. Anybody with a brain knows exactly how that old metaphor would be perceived after Palin's speech. If you accuse one you have to accuse everybody.

Or perhaps we could both cut everybody some slack and acknowledge that we aren't mind readers and everybody says things now and then that are misinterpreted or misunderstood by others.

(The guy who used 'uppity' did apologize however and has not attempted to excoriate those who say they were offended by it. Obama has not apologized and has attempted to smear those who say they were offended by it.)
DontTreadOnMe
 
  3  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 12:06 pm
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:
Isn't an apology forthcoming? Immediately? Isn't that how things are supposed to work?


i hope not. unless you also expect an apology from mccain and cheney for using the same phrase repeatedly.

political correctness; it ain't just for liberals anymore.

so much for the straight talk express.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 12:06 pm
@A Lone Voice,
Quote:
Do his subsequent explanations make sense? They seem pretty construed. Sure he has used the comment before. But again, one look at his audience's reaction makes it pretty clear about the context in which his comment was taken. Obviously, from their reaction, they thought Obama was comparing Palin to a pig.


If that was Obama's intent, then you have the wrong analogy... if that was his intent. Palin would be the lipstick and McCain's policies would be the pig. This interpretation makes a lot more sense. Palin is the window dressing (lipstick) to hide the unsightly McCain policies (pig). That's actually pretty good. I still think he was just using his standard stump speech, but that take on the analogy would have been fairly clever.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  6  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 12:11 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

If you know what was in the heart of a person using the term 'uppity', then I know what was in Obama's heart when he used "lipstick on a pig'


"lipstick on a pig" is a very common and acceptable phrase.

"uppity n*gger" isn't.

and yeah, foxy... i do know what a 58 year old man from georgia means when he says uppity. and so do you.

you should be ashamed of yourself making excuses for a white racist. i'm really disappointed in you. Sad
Foxfyre
 
  4  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 12:19 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
And DTOM, Obama the messiah, the annointed one, the hope of the entire world, certainly had to know how "lipstick on a pig" would be interpreted following the Palin speech and subsequent massive publicity re lipstick. It isn't like you to cherry pick a phrase out of context and attack either. That is disappointing to me.

Yes 'lipstick on a pig' has been a common phrase for a very long time and I too have used it on occason. The inference changed though after Palin's speech and all the publicity and it will never again be used without conjuring up different images than it once conjured up. If Obama wasn't thinking about Palin when he used it, he couldn't have missed the audience reaction. I can assure you that after all the bruhaha, Obama won't be including it in his speeches anymore.

"Uppity" is a term used by many, including me, to refer to all manner of situations and occasions that have nothing to do with people who are minorities or races. It was regularly used by Granny on the "Beverly Hillbillies, along with Hoity Toity" and nobody thought she was referred to 'black people'. I can see how it would be really easy to use it and then realize that 'oops - I can't say that if the other guy is black' kind of thing. Apology warranted.

You lefties want us to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, but boy you sure don't believe in giving somebody in the 'wrong party' the benefit of the doubt, huh.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 12:30 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
DontTreadOnMe wrote:



"uppity n*gger" .


Is that how liberals use the term?
Shame on them.
 

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