@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
Rather than respond point-by-point, I'll just address one representative passage to illustrate how confused and, ultimately, untenable your position is.
You've been doing that for a while now, ignoring when your statements have been shown to be false (e.g. when you claimed that French orthography was similarly convoluted) and making up my position instead of just reading it.
There's really no reason to respond point-by-point to your arguments, since so many of them are tangential or don't make much sense. But since you insist...
As for my claim that "French orthography was similarly convoluted" has been "shown to be false," let me refer you to your "proof:"
Robert Gentel wrote:French does not have equally challenging orthography. There are over 1000 ways to spell about 44 sounds in the English language and French does not come close to this (largely because a lot of it was already incorporated into English while English went on to aquire more of the idiocy from other languages).
Ah yes,
Robert's rules of logic. Your mighty
ipse dixit has shown my claim to be false. Well, color me unimpressed. But since you seem to think this is an important point (it isn't), I'll indulge you and amend my previous statement: "In truth, most English words are either phonetic or else follow some pretty easy-to-learn rules. In that respect, it is little different from French, which
also has a challenging orthography."
Happy?
Robert Gentel wrote:So if you are going to continue to cherry pick, at least find the time to get to this question I asked you:
Why do you think linguists consider Spanish to be a good example of an orthography that strays less from the true alphabet ideal than does English?
Probably because it does. But then I never said it didn't. As I pointed out: "Although
Spanish spelling is more regular than English, it still has its exceptions." My point wasn't that Spanish spelling wasn't more regular than English, but that Spanish orthography still departs from spoken Spanish, so it is not truly a phonetic alphabet. In that respect, your statement:
Robert Gentel wrote:The alphabet itself is simple phonetics and once you learn all the sounds mapped to their letters you can write any word you hear.
is simply false, since regional differences in pronunciation mean that Spanish is not uniformly phonetic across accent boundaries.*
Robert Gentel wrote:See, you claim that the regional dialects make this impossible but this is a clear example of superior orthography.
See above.
Robert Gentel wrote:Quote:Really, it's absurd to maintain that you're only interested in how sounds should be spelled while remaining completely agnostic as to how words should be spelled.
It sounds absurd to you because you don't understand the purpose of the alphabet.
The purpose of an alphabet like English's is to represent sounds and not words Joe. There are only around 44 sounds but at least a million words (when you count all variants and technical terms).
Cripes, this is getting almost surreal. Of course an alphabet doesn't represent words -- I never said that it did. My point is that it is absurd to advocate alphabet reform but be totally noncommittal to spelling reform. The purpose of an alphabet isn't
just to represent sounds -- it's also supposed to be used to form
words.
But then you know that -- you've stated, for instance:
Robert Gentel wrote:
Right now English already has regional spelling, regional pronunciation, and regional vocabulary. Those aren't the real problems with English spelling. The problem is that there is no internal consistency in the spelling even when you disconsider regional differences and none of the regional variants provide you a way to systematically learn to write.
See, even
you think this is a
spelling problem, not an alphabet problem. And with good reason: it
is a spelling problem. Nobody is out there (except maybe you, inconsistently) saying that the difficulty with English is that we don't have a simple way of representing the "f" sound, as if that, by itself, were a significant handicap. The only reason why it's a problem is because the
spelling of the "f" sound is inconsistent. Alphabet reform is merely a way of addressing the spelling problem: it's not an end in itself.
Robert Gental wrote:Quote: After all, there's no point in having any kind of alphabet -- phonetic or not -- unless you plan on using it to spell words.
That doesn't mean you need to codify how all the words are spelled when you codify what sounds they will represent in what combinations.
See above.
Robert Gentel wrote:Quote:Indeed, the only way we know how people pronounce sounds like "f" or "i" or "sh" is by listening to them pronounce words like "fish." There aren't a whole lot of people out there saying "ffffffff" in everyday conversation.
You were the one who brought up the differences in speech from individual to individual, so as long as there was only one it was relevant to your line of argument.
I brought up the differences in pronunciation because that's an important consideration for someone advocating a phonetic alphabet. Like you.
Robert Gentel wrote:I don't personally see a case for much variance in the spelling of fish (just like there isn't much right now) and I believe standards would be put in place for that based on the relationship with the alphabet I would propose but they are very separate linguistic building blocks.
They're separate? You can't be serious. You want to construct a phonetic alphabet without consideration for the way people actually speak?
Robert Gentel wrote:One is an alphabet and the other is a dictionary. It's the dictionary's job to establish standards for word spellings and not the alphabet's job. There is a predictable relationship between the two but they are very distinct.
See above.
Robert Gentel wrote:Quote: More importantly, the only reason we're even interested in how people pronounce those sounds is because those sounds are constituent parts of words.
Yes, an alphabet has a relationship with words Joe. What's your point?
Defining the graphemes for the phonemes is the purpose of the alphabet and not to define the spelling of words. There is a predictable relationship but what is your point? How does this support the nonsensical arguments you made to the effect that an orthography of the type that exists and is used by millions (e.g. Spanish) is impossible?
Wow!
I have absolutely no idea how you arrived at
that conclusion. Far from claiming it's impossible, I'm the one who wrote: "I think it should be pretty clear that any attention-seeking dunce can come up with his own phonetic spelling system." So I'm on record as not only saying that phonetic spelling systems are possible, but that anyone can come up with one. But since you are so sure that I've misquoted you and misrepresented your position, perhaps you'd like to point out precisely where I said that an orthography of the type that exists and is used by millions is impossible.
Robert Gentel wrote:Quote:Now, of course, if your interest is merely in duplicating something like the IPA or in studying comparative linguistics, then that's different. But since this entire thread has been about English spelling, I'm sure that's not the case here.
You still can't seem to pay me the courtesy of actually reading what I write before randomly speculating about what it is I am trying to say. In the very post you are replying to I was very clear about this:
"I would not seek to establish a phonetic notation for all languages (like the International Phonetic Alphabet purports to do)"
I'm merely covering all the bases.
Robert Gentel wrote:Quote:In the end, however, there is an easy solution to this problem. Since there is no recognized authority regulating either speech or spelling, language is technically in a state of anarchy.
The
English language. Other languages
do have recognized authorities that maintain their languages.
More or less. But then we're not talking about Spanish alphabetic reform, are we?
Robert Gentel wrote:This analogy is stupid. You first raise the point that there is no central authority for the English language when that is my main bone to pick with the English language to then argue that no standard can be had. This ignores that other languages do have central authority and that this is something I advocate for English.
That is your gripe? That English doesn't have something like the
Acadamie Française? Why didn't you say so three pages ago?
Frankly, that's a side issue. Establishing an "
Acadamie Anglaise" is, I'm convinced, another serious flaw in your position, but it's not something that needs to be covered in a discussion about spelling or alphabet reform. So, unless you absolutely insist, I see no need to go into detail on this point.
Robert Gentel wrote:And like I said, this is a lame cop out. I am not trying to change English by myself, and am advocating what I think is better. That starts with establishing authoritative bodies for the English language similar to what other languages enjoy.
See above.
Robert Gentel wrote:So I am advocating something I think improves the language, not something I think I am likely to see in my lifetime based on my effort. I've already been very clear about this. You've responded with a bunch of ignorant nonsense about language and now want to cop out with a general ramble about how improbable it is instead of the nonsense you were on about to the effect that the change itself was technically flawed.
Not a cop out at all. My point, all along, is that the type of reform that you advocate is not worth the costs involved, and that what you propose is, in itself, problematic. As I stated before: "What you're suggesting, then, is merely to substitute one problem (inconsistent phonetic spelling) for another (non-phonetic spelling)." My analogy with the marketplace shows that there is already a mechanism in place to address your proposals. The fact, however, that such proposals have rarely been successful is, I think, a pretty good indication that the benefits of the "solution" are not worth the costs.
Now, I know you think yours is the only argument being ignored, but if you'd try to address
my argument squarely you might spend a little less time with these rambling tangents (although I sincerely doubt it).
Robert Gentel wrote:If you no longer think you are able to defend your arguments that's fine, but I will call this cop out what it is. It does nothing to address your linguistic arguments and begs off under a general appeal to the popularity of the imperfect orthography. You had argued that it was not better Joe, now you moved the goal posts to merely unlikely.
See above.
Robert Gentel wrote:You don't understand it at all Joe. English already uses a phonemic orthography, it's just the example of a defective script and would be well served to move to a more shallow orthography.
Doing so would not represent a change of the fundamental system but a movement within a spectrum toward the alphabetic ideal.
Hmmm, I seem to recall saying this:
joefromchicago wrote:It should also be remembered that, back when English spelling was first being formalized in the sixteenth century, the spelling more or less was phonetic.
So thanks, but there's no need to point out to me that English already uses a phonemic orthography. Like I said:
joefromchicago wrote:In truth, most English words are either phonetic or else follow some pretty easy-to-learn rules.
*In previous posts I've talked about "dialect boundaries." Upon reflection, that's not entirely accurate. Since we're talking about pronunciation, the real important boundaries are those between accents. Of course, dialects will typically have differing accents as well, but they're not the same thing.