29
   

FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 01:38 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
It is not confiscating wealth from Citizen A who ethically and legally acquired it and giving it to Citizen B for his personal benefit even though he provided no labor or resources to earn it.


Sounds exactly like what McCain would do with his $5,000 tax credit. Here, this is what McCain says about his plan on his own website:

John McCain wrote:
John McCain Will Reform The Tax Code To Offer More Choices Beyond Employer-Based Health Insurance Coverage.
While still having the option of employer-based coverage, every family will receive a direct refundable tax credit - effectively cash - of $2,500 for individuals and $5,000 for families to offset the cost of insurance.


Wait a minute. Would people get those $5,000, even if they didn't owe that much in income taxes in the first place? Why, of course:

John McCain wrote:
http://i38.tinypic.com/8xpk7r.gif


Look at the 10% bracket: people whose income tax liability is only $1,200 would get a tax credit - effectively cash - of $5,000.

Redistribution of wealth? Socialism? Marxism?

You tell us.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 01:44 pm
@old europe,
Everyone would get the tax credit for health care... perhaps you missed that part? Not just the 10% you seem to want to highlight. Hardly a redistribution of anything. Poor effort on your part.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 01:54 pm
@old europe,
A concept of providing a tax credit for everybody to purchase health insurance is not wealth redistribution. Those who do not obtain health insurance get no tax credit.

As most don't follow the Conservatism in America thread, earlier today I posted the follow I got in my e-mail today. It beautifully illustrates what redistribution of wealth is:

Quote:
Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read "Vote Obama, I need the money." I laughed.

Once in the restaurant my server had on a "Obama 08" tie, again I laughed as he had given away his political preference--just imagine the coincidence.

When the bill came I decided not to tip the server and explained to him that I was exploring the Obama redistribution of wealth concept. He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in need--the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $10 and told him to thank the server inside as I've decided he could use the money more. The homeless guy was grateful.

At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment I realized the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn even though the actual recipient needed the money more.

I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in concept than in practical application.

Or is it just redistribution of someone else's wealth that is the great idea?

old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 01:54 pm
@McGentrix,
That's exactly what I'm saying. Everybody would get the 'tax credit'. As McCain points out, the tax credit is "effectively cash", money that you'd get, no matter how much you owe in income taxes in the first place.

It's not a tax cut, where you simply keep more of the money you've made. It's a handout. You get $5,000, no matter what. It's a plan that gives out money, and does so disproportionately in favour of those who pay less taxes.


How is that not redistribution of wealth?
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 01:55 pm
@Butrflynet,
Butrflynet wrote:

How do you feel about the annual wealth redistribution checks each resident of Alaska gets?

Alaska residents will get annual oil royalty dividend of $1,654 each


It's a shame that this kind thing is used as an example of wealth redistribution... I mean really, do you not understand what a royalty check is? What's even funnier is that this isn't the first time I've seen it here. Funny in a sad way, I mean.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 01:55 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
Poor effort on your part.


I thought so too. The more you study it the more it looks like different coloured sugar lumps of different strengths being dangled in front of a little lad with his nose pressed up against the toffee shop window after he spent his last penny on getting the Vicar's daughter to show him her's.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 01:56 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
A concept of taxing everybody and providing a government service equally to everybody is not wealth redistribution.


I agree with that. However, that is not what the McCain plan does. It's not providing any kind of service.

It just hands out money.

Or do you consider handing out $5,000 of "effectively cash" a "government service"?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:00 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

That's exactly what I'm saying. Everybody would get the 'tax credit'. As McCain points out, the tax credit is "effectively cash", money that you'd get, no matter how much you owe in income taxes in the first place.

It's not a tax cut, where you simply keep more of the money you've made. It's a handout. You get $5,000, no matter what. It's a plan that gives out money, and does so disproportionately in favour of those who pay less taxes.


How is that not redistribution of wealth?


No everyone wouldn't get the tax credit. Only those who obtain health insurance would get the tax credit. Those who did not use it to obtain health insurance would be entitled to no credit. It would be a better deal than we used to have when we were allowed to deduct most of our health insurance costs and other medical expenses. A tax credit is the amount we all use to reduce the taxes we would otherwise owe and we have to meet very specific criteria in order to get one.

Hubby and I got one last year when we replaced our old furnace with a new energy efficient furnace. It isn't the government mailing us out a check hoping we'll use it responsibly.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:11 pm
@Foxfyre,
Yes, you'd have to spend it on health care, but it wouldn't be the government providing health care. It's not a government service.

You would just get $5,000. Then you'd have to go out, find a health care provider that would be willing to cover you, and spend it on health care coverage.
On the other hand, if you already have an insurance plan through your employer, the money your employer spends on your health coverage would be regarded as income and would be taxed.

So everybody would get those $5,000, whether you owe that much in income taxes or not.

It's not just a reduction in taxes you owe. If you owe as little as $1,200 in income taxes and don't have health insurance through your employer, you'd get $5,000.


How is that not redistribution of wealth?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:12 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

old europe wrote:

That's exactly what I'm saying. Everybody would get the 'tax credit'. As McCain points out, the tax credit is "effectively cash", money that you'd get, no matter how much you owe in income taxes in the first place.

It's not a tax cut, where you simply keep more of the money you've made. It's a handout. You get $5,000, no matter what. It's a plan that gives out money, and does so disproportionately in favour of those who pay less taxes.


How is that not redistribution of wealth?


No everyone wouldn't get the tax credit. Only those who obtain health insurance would get the tax credit. Those who did not use it to obtain health insurance would be entitled to no credit. It would be a better deal than we used to have when we were allowed to deduct most of our health insurance costs and other medical expenses. A tax credit is the amount we all use to reduce the taxes we would otherwise owe and we have to meet very specific criteria in order to get one.

Hubby and I got one last year when we replaced our old furnace with a new energy efficient furnace. It isn't the government mailing us out a check hoping we'll use it responsibly.


Are you sure about that, Fox? I can't find anything in McCain's campaign literature which says that you would actually have to buy health insurance with the tax credit in order to receive it.

Cycloptichorn
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I can't find anything in McCain's campaign literature which says that you would actually have to buy health insurance with the tax credit in order to receive it.


<raises eyebrow>

Good question. It's how I understood it, but maybe some McCain supporters can point to the relevant part...
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:36 pm
@old europe,
Quote:
It just hands out money.


I'd vote for that and I never usually vote at all for obvious reasons.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:39 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Hubby and I got one last year when we replaced our old furnace with a new energy efficient furnace. It isn't the government mailing us out a check hoping we'll use it responsibly.


That's pretty witty Foxy.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:47 pm
My family has qualified for tax credits for various things over the years. In not a single case did the government send me a check and call that a tax credit. It just doesn't work that way. In order to receive a tax credit, you spend the money and then deduct the allowed credit from whatever taxes you owe the government. You also are required to provide proof that you spent the money in such a way to qualify for the credit.

If the government sent you a check so that you could buy health care if that's what you wanted to do with it, that would not be a tax credit. That would be something very different. If you get a refund on your taxes that you otherwise wouldn't be due, and you are allowed to spend it any way you want, that is a rebate. If the government sends you a check above and beyond any taxes you paid, that is welfare.

You have to spend the money for a specific designated purpose, and be able to prove that you did so in order to qualify for and take a tax credit off the taxes that you otherwise owe.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:50 pm
@old europe,
Quote:
I can't find anything in McCain's campaign literature which says that you would actually have to buy health insurance with the tax credit in order to receive it.


Foxy explained the reason for having to buy health insurance with the tax credit. So that you behave responsibly. You'll never behave responsibly of your own accord. You have to be tricked. We all know how unpopular it is. It would seem a responsibility of the next president to make sure that we all continue to behave responsibly. And all the moreso in these trying times.

I saw some properties in Florida, I think, on the news today which had been repossessed. Damage had been done by the evicted tenants.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:52 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

My family has qualified for tax credits for various things over the years. In not a single case did the government send me a check and call that a tax credit. It just doesn't work that way. In order to receive a tax credit, you spend the money and then deduct the allowed credit from whatever taxes you owe the government. You also are required to provide proof that you spent the money in such a way to qualify for the credit.

If the government sent you a check so that you could buy health care if that's what you wanted to do with it, that would not be a tax credit. That would be something very different. If you get a refund on your taxes that you otherwise wouldn't be due, and you are allowed to spend it any way you want, that is a rebate. If the government sends you a check above and beyond any taxes you paid, that is welfare.

You have to spend the money for a specific designated purpose, and be able to prove that you did so in order to qualify for and take a tax credit off the taxes that you otherwise owe.




So, if you can't afford to buy health care, under McCain's plan, how do you purchase it? If you don't have the money in the first place, how do you get helped by tax credits at the end of the year?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:52 pm
@spendius,
I can't believe that John McCain plans to send every person $2500 with the hope that he or she will spend it on health care. We have some really REALLY stupid people in Congress, but I can't think of anybody who would be that dumb.

A tax credit can be incremental, however. It can be deducted from the taxes your employer withholds and go toward a company sponsored plan or there are any number of ways it can be done. Very few people pay a whole years' insurance premiums up front for anything. In my case I would deduct it from the self-employment taxes that I file every quarter. Actually since it is a valid business expense, I get a deduction for health insurance now. A tax credit would be a lot better though.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 03:06 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I can't believe that John McCain plans to send every person $2500 with the hope that he or she will spend it on health care. We have some really REALLY stupid people in Congress, but I can't think of anybody who would be that dumb.


Could have fooled me. I thought that under the McCain plan, you would only have to show that you pay for health insurance in order to get the full $2,500 or $5,000, even if you don't actually spend that much on your insurance.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 03:18 pm
@old europe,
Again, if that is the plan then 'tax credit' is the wrong word for it. And I'm pretty sure that McCain knows the definition of tax credit.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 03:23 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Again, if that is the plan then 'tax credit' is the wrong word for it. And I'm pretty sure that McCain knows the definition of tax credit.


That sounds like you would disagree with a proposal that effectively hands out $2,500/$5,000, regardless of the actual cost of the health care plan purchased...?

Anyways, there should be a way to find out what McCain actually proposes, I assume...
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 12/23/2024 at 07:18:21