FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

Foxfyre wrote: "Ah, I guess there is no point in asking you to back up what you have accused me of then either, huh?"

OMG! Why would I want to waste my time showing every instance where you deny making statements that you in fact made and showing every instance where you cried wolf and pulled out the "media bias" card? People who read your posts know your modus operandi. Perhaps you should review your own posts. Heal thyself.

Debra, You're wasting your time; most of us know Fox's modus operandi; at least those of us who have challenged her on many fronts. We have even found her contradictions although she continues to deny them.

I agree that we all know what a liar she is, but I disagree that it is a waste of time to point it out. It's good to point these things out so that others might possibly avoid getting sucked into the vortex of manipulation and deceipt. It's kind of like a community service, and I thank Debra and anyone else who takes the time.

Foxfyre is telling it like it is, but Obama Democrats find it impossible to cope with the truth, and instead accuse non-Obama Democrats of behaving exactly like they behave. In psychology that is called "transference." It's a kind of neurosis.

I really do LIKE Foxfyre. I think she's a nice lady. My own sister in California is a nice lady too--and I love my sister very much. Unfortunately, my sister was one of those people who voted to discriminate against gay couples. When I visited her last summer, she was livid that the California Supreme Court had negated her vote! I will never understand the hypocrisy of those (my sister included) who demand that government stay out of THEIR lives--but they have no problem using the power of the government to play "God" over other people's lives.

I try to tell it like it is for me. Debra is a highly intelligent lady, but she has this unattractive trait of attempting to demonize and/or attribute fictitious comments or attitudes or beliefs to people with whom she disagrees. But there is a lot of that going around. Sarah Palin was accused of interjecting 'a racial tinge' yesterday and today when she brought up Bill Ayers relationship with Obama. Ayers is a white guy!

Transference? Perhaps. I would rather describe it as denial.

His supporters refuse to see how he frequently plays the race card to shut down criticism of almost anything. They refuse to even think about how many really questionable or troubling relationships he has had during his relatively short climb up the political ladder. They refuse to explore in any depth or admit the implausibility or serious consequences of a number of things he claims he will do. They cannot understand or refuse to acknowledge the Marxist flavor to his attitudes about government and society as a whole coupled with lack of professional or life experiences to temper those. They cannot see him as the most ideologically extreme and possibly the most potentially dangerous candidate to ever run for the office of President of the United States.

Denial is a tough hurdle to get over.

The problem is Debra that gay couples are a problem. It's okay if there are very few of them and they go quietly about their gay couplings. Very few people will object to that.

But when there are a large number, and they make a lot of noise about it based on principles applying when there are very few who stay beneath the radar, is when cracks start to appear in the edifice on which your succour is based.

You silly moo.

I guess most of us "old timers" had our "debate" with Fox, and anything now seems redundant.

You don't really thing gay couples have been condemned down the ages, often severely, because of some bigoted prejudice do you? It had an economic dimension. And a military one.

Are you not aware of that? It's not a question of whether we love Elton John. It is whether we can afford that sort of thing catching on and becoming a fashionable craze.

And that's aside from it being ridiculous, contra Darwinianism and grossly undignified. Are you campaigning for alternatives to women.

the most potentially dangerous candidate to ever run for the office?

compared to who? G.W. Bush? Bush wasn't "potentially" dangerous--he WAS dangerous and destructive to the well-being of our entire country.

Bush has left this country in such a shambles, whoever takes office will have one hell of a job trying to fix things.

If Obama accumulates a presidential record that is just as dismal and destructive as Bush's, then come back and gloat. But you had YOUR president for the last 8 years, it's time for the rest of us to have ours. It's disheartening, however, that the Democrats have to spend such enormous time and effort mopping up after the failed presidencies of the Republican party.

I understand, spendius. Those damn gays should have stayed in the closet. How dare they ask for equal rights in America.....they should be ashamed.

That's naive. If the opponents sing all the sweetest tunes and lead the opinion polls as a consequence who on earth would leave them with an easy ride?

This is another issue that I disagree with both McCain and Obama. They will not allow "marriage" between a gay or lesbian couple.

What's so sacrosanct about marriage? Heterosexual marriages usually end up in divorce, even when they declare "till death do us part." Real holy. Nothing like commitment.

That the usual thing to do when you're in a tiny minority.

You haven't addressed the points though it is very easily noticed. It is a grave error to think Oscar Wilde was persecuted for being half gay. The whores cheered when he was sentenced. We do know that.

Not everywhere ci. And when they do end up in divorce there are many other reasons that have nothing to do with sex.

spendi, I didn't identify the cause of all those divorces; your's is only one of multitudes that are "causes."

I also disagree with both McCain and Obama on this issue.

"Marriage" is NOT a religious institution. A "civil union" is not a religious institution. Although the law allows a "marriage" or a "civil union" to be "formalized" through either a religious or civil ceremony, the end result is the same. Both are a civil contract that may only be entered into or dissolved in accordance with the civil LAW. Accordingly, a "marriage" and a "civil union" are exactly the same thing--except SOME heterosexual persons believe that reserving the "marriage" title for themselves somehow makes them superior to homosexual persons.

Biden says "marriage" is a "religious" ceremony, and should be "decided" by the church. If that is so, why are they against it? Why must our country have a "law" that denies "marriage?" Discrimination, pure and simple.

The RNC has released its Ayers file. (The Obama campaign has countered by resurrecting the Keating 5 scandal which is the closest thing to Obama's associations that they can find I guess.) Of note, none of this in itself is damning. But it does underscore the kinds of people that Obama has used to climb the social/political ladder and is fair game for scrutinizing the character, judgment, and possible motives/agenda of the next President of the United States.

(Next we'll explore the sorts of activities funded by those boards that Obama and Ayers sat on together.)

Monday, October 06, 2008
The Obama Ayers Relationship

The Relationship Between Barack Obama And Bill Ayers Is Much More Extensive Than Obama's Campaign Is Willing To Admit

Obama's Top Campaign Staff Have Attempted To Downplay The Relationship Between Obama And Bill Ayers:

Obama Spokesman Robert Gibbs Said That Obama And Ayers Weren't Close And That Obama Was Only 8 Years Old When Ayers Was Bombing Buildings. Robert Gibbs: "If you read the article ... it says these two men weren't close, this man isn't involved in our campaign. Bill Ayers is somebody that Barack Obama said his actions were despicable and these happened when Barack Obama was 8 years old." (FOX News' "FOX & Friends," 10/6/08)

Gibbs Has Also Limited The Relationship Between Obama And Ayers To Serving On Two Boards Together. John Roberts: "Barack Obama knew Bill Ayers and had contact with him between 1995 and 2005. Exactly what was the nature of the relationship?" Robert Gibbs: "Well, John, as The New York Times reported this weekend, they served on two boards together during that time period." (CNN's "American Morning," 10/6/08)

Even Obama Has Previously Referred To Ayers As "A Guy Who Lives In My Neighborhood" And Not Someone He Exchanges Ideas With "On A Regular Basis." Obama: "George, but this is an example of what I'm talking about. This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis. And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values doesn't make much sense, George." (Sen. Barack Obama, ABC Democrat Candidates Presidential Debate, Philadelphia, PA, 4/16/08)

But Obama's Connections With Bill Ayers Are Much More Extensive Than He Or His Campaign Staff Is Willing To Admit:

In 1995, During Obama's First State Senate Campaign, William Ayers And Wife Bernadine Dohrn Hosted A Meeting Of Chicago Liberals At Their Home For Obama, Which One Attendee Said Was Aimed At "Launching Him."
"In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district's influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. While Ayers and Dohrn may be thought of in Hyde Park as local activists, they're better known nationally as two of the most notorious -- and unrepentant -- figures from the violent fringe of the 1960s anti-war movement. ... 'I can remember being one of a small group of people who came to Bill Ayers' house to learn that Alice Palmer was stepping down from the senate and running for Congress,' said Dr. Quentin Young, a prominent Chicago physician and advocate for single-payer health care, of the info rmal gathering at the home of Ayers and his wife, Dohrn. '[Palmer] identified [Obama] as her successor.' ... Dr. Young and another guest, Maria Warren, described it similarly: as an introduction to Hyde Park liberals of the handpicked successor to Palmer, a well-regarded figure on the left. 'When I first met Barack Obama, he was giving a standard, innocuous little talk in the living room of those two legends-in-their-own-minds, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn,' Warren wrote on her blog in 2005. 'They were launching him -- introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread.'" (Ben Smith, "Obama Once Visited '60s Radicals," The Politico, 1/22/08)

From March Of 1995 Until September Of 1997, Obama And Ayers Attended At Least Seven Meetings Together Relating To The Chicago Annenberg Challenge. (Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Board Of Directors Meeting, Minutes Of The Board, 3/15/95, 3/31/95, 4/13/95, 6/5/95, 9/30/97; National Annenberg Challenge Evaluation Meeting, List Of Participants, 5/24/95; Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Chicago School Reform Collaborative Meeting, Minutes, 10/23/96)

NOTE: Bill Ayers Was Asked To Help Obama Formulate The Chicago Annenberg Challenge By-Laws. (Chicago Annenberg Challenge Board Of Directors Minutes, 3/15/95)

In 1997, Obama Praised Ayers' Book On The Juvenile Justice System. "The two men were involved in efforts to reform the city's education system. They appeared together on academic panels, including one organized by Michelle Obama to discuss the juvenile justice system, an area of mutual concern. Mr. Ayers's book on the subject won a rave review in The Chicago Tribune by Mr. Obama, who called it 'a searing and timely account.'" (Jo Becker and Christopher Drew, "Pragmatic Politics, Forged On The South Side," The New York Times, 5/11/08)

Obama On William Ayers' "A Kind And Just Parent: The Children Of Juvenile Court": "A searing and timely account of the juvenile court system, and the courageous individuals who rescue hope from despair." (Chicago Tribune, 12/21/97)

"[Obama And Ayers] Have Also Appeared Jointly On Two Academic Panels, One In 1997 And Another In 2001." (Russell Berman, "Obama's Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny," The New York Sun, 2/19/08)

From 1999 To 2002, Obama Served With Ayers On The Board Of Directors For Woods Fund Of Chicago. "[Ayers] served with [Obama] from 1999 to 2002 on the board of the Woods Fund, an anti-poverty group." (Timothy J. Burger, "Obama's Chicago Ties Might Fuel 'Republican Attack Machine'," Bloomberg, 2/15/08)

During The Time Obama And Ayers Served Together On The Woods Fund, Ayers Was Quoted Saying "I Don't Regret Setting Bombs ... I Feel We Didn't Do Enough." "'I don't regret setting bombs,' Bill Ayers said. 'I feel we didn't do enough.' Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970's as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago." (Dinitia Smith, "No Regrets For A Love Of Explosives," The New York Times, 9/11/01)

NOTE: Obama, Born August 14th, 1961, Was 40 Years Old When Ayers Was Quoted. (Obama For America Website, www.barackobama.com, Accessed 10/6/08; Dinitia Smith, "No Regrets For A Love Of Explosives," The New York Times, 9/11/01)

While Obama And Ayers Were Serving On The Woods Fund Together, Ayers Posed Standing On An American Flag For An Article In Chicago Magazine Entitled "No Regrets." (Marcia Froelke Coburn, "No Regrets," Chicago Magazine, 8/01)



Obama And Ayers Are Neighbors In Chicago's Hyde Park Neighborhood. "Twenty-six years later, at a lunchtime meeting about school reform in a Chicago skyscraper, Barack Obama met Mr. Ayers, by then an education professor. Their paths have crossed sporadically since then, at a coffee Mr. Ayers hosted for Mr. Obama's first run for office, on the schools project and a charitable board, and in casual encounters as Hyde Park neighbors." (Scott Shane, "Obama And '60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths," The New York Times, 10/4/08)

Obama Spokesman Ben LaBolt Told The New York Times That Last Year Obama And Ayers "Bumped Into Each Other On The Street In Hyde Park." "[Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt] said they have not spoken by phone or exchanged e-mail messages since Mr. Obama began serving in the United States Senate in January 2005 and last met more than a year ago when they bumped into each other on the street in Hyde Park." (Scott Shane, "Obama And '60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths," The New York Times, 10/4/08)

Neighbors Have Said "It's Only Natural" That Obama Would Know Ayers, Who Often Opens His Home For Gatherings, As Obama And His Wife "Are A Part Of Our Neighborhood And Part Of Our Social Circle." "Since coming out of hiding in 1980, the couple have raised three boys in Chicago and become part of the fabric of their liberal South Side neighborhood. Neighbors said it's only natural that Obama would know Ayers and Dohrn, who often open their homes for gatherings filled with lively discussions about politics, arts and social issues. Obama and his wife 'are part of our neighborhood and part of our social circle,' said Elizabeth Chandler, a neighbor of Ayers'." (Trevor Jensen, Robert Mitchum and Mary Owen, "Bill Ayers' Turbulent Past Contrasts With Quiet Academ ic Life," Chicago Tribune, 4/17/08)
Ayers' Organization, The Weather Underground, Was A "Violent Left-Wing Activist Group":

"William Ayers ... [Was] A Founding Member Of The Group That Bombed The U.S. Capitol And The Pentagon During The 1970s." (Russell Berman, "Obama's Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny," The New York Sun, 2/19/08)

Ayers' Group, The Weather Underground, Is A "Violent Left-Wing Activist Group." "Senator Obama's ties to a former leader of the violent left-wing activist group the Weather Underground are drawing new scrutiny as he battles Senator Clinton for the Democratic presidential nomination." (Russell Berman, "Obama's Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny," The New York Sun, 2/19/08)

The Weather Underground Produced A Manual Which Begins, "We Are A Guerrilla Organization. We Are Communist Women And Men, Underground In The United States For More Than Four Years." "The coalition was said to be a violence-prone faction inspired by the Weather Underground's ''Prairie Fire,'' a guerrilla warfare manual published in 1974. The manual begins, 'We are a guerrilla organization. We are Communist women and men, underground in the United States for more than four years.'" (Paul L. Montgomery, "2 Women In Brink's Case Identified With Weathermen From Start In '69," The New York Times, 10/ 22/81)
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