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FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 01:57 am
@JamesMorrison,
JM:

I'm not going to waste much time responding to your post because you're being substantively and intellectually dishonest.

First, you quoted a statement and attributed to me, but I didn't make that statement. You made arguments that were totally irrelevant to the substance of my posts. I underlined the relevant portions of passages I quoted from other sources. Because Asherman didn't grasp the relevance of the underlined portions, I explained in my response to his post.

Second, you still don't grasp the relevance. You are making strawman arguments all over the place.

What is so difficult to understand?

A federalist is a proponent of a strong FEDERAL Government.

An Anti-federalist (or STATIST, if that makes it easier for you) opposes a strong federal government because it is a threat to state's rights.

YES, the Constitution was amended to address the concerns of the Anti-federalists. The Tenth Amendment provides:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

So what? It doesn't negate the fact that the federalists obtained what they wanted: A strong federal government. Although Congress's powers may be enumerated, Congress may use those powers to fullest extent possible. The Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper (Elastic) Clause ensure that Congress can do pretty much anything it wants to do.

The Fourteenth Amendment further restricted state powers. Didn't you read it? Didn't you notice the prohibitions?

And can you possibly discern the difference between Congress's exercise of its Commerce Clause powers and a constitutional prohibition placed directly on the states? If you can ascertain the significance of the difference, then maybe there is some hope that a bulb will finally light up over your head--at least concerning the issue of abortion.

Because McCain and Palin argue that the abortion issue should be a state issue, not a federal (constitutional) issue, they are anti-federalists (statists). They cannot honestly declare themselves to be federalists.

Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 03:07 am
@JamesMorrison,
JM wrote: "There is good reasoning in allowing the states to tackle divers problems via their own legislature and judiciary. I believe one of the founding fathers cited them as experimental laboratories that would allow trial and error with smaller stakes involved before actually exposing the entire nation as one such argument. The other has to do tolerance for local differences in morals and culture."

FYI:

Quote:
It is not necessary to challenge the authority of the states to indulge in experimental legislation; but it would be strange and unwarranted doctrine to hold that they may do so by enactments which transcend the limitations imposed upon them by the Federal Constitution. The principle is imbedded in our constitutional system that there are certain essentials of liberty with which the state is not entitled to dispense in the interest of experiments. This principle has been applied by this court in many cases. Dorchy v. Kansas, 264 U.S. 286 , 44 S. Ct. 323; Wolff Packing Co. v. Industrial Court, 262 U.S. 522 , 43 S. Ct. 630, 27 A. L. R. 1280; Id., 267 U.S. 552 , 45 S. Ct. 441; Pierce v. Sisters, 268 U.S. 510 , 45 S. Ct. 571, 39 A. L. R. 468; Nixon v. Herndon, 273 U.S. 536 , 47 S. Ct. 446; Tumey v. Ohio, 273 U.S. 510 , 47 S. Ct. 437, 50 A. L. R. 1243; Manley v. Georgia, 279 U.S. 1 , 49 S. Ct. 215; Washington v. Roberge, 278 U.S. 116 , 49 S. Ct. 50; Chicago, St. P. M. & O. v. Holmberg, 282 U.S. 162 , 51 S. Ct. 56; Stromberg v. California, 283 U.S. 359 , 51 S. Ct. 532, 73 A. L. R. 1484; Near v. Minnesota, 283 U.S. 697 , 51 S. Ct. 625. In the case last cited the theory of experimentation in censorship was not permitted to interfere with the fundamental doctrine of the freedom of the press. The opportunity to apply one's labor and skill in an ordinary occupation with proper regard for all reasonable regulations is no less entitled to protection.


NEW STATE ICE CO. v. LIEBMANN, 285 U.S. 262, 279-280 (1932).


Quote:
First, the fact that the governing majority in a State has traditionally viewed a particular practice as immoral is not a sufficient reason for upholding a law prohibiting the practice; neither history nor tradition could save a law prohibiting miscegenation from constitutional attack. . . .

* * *

Indeed, we have never held that moral disapproval, without any other asserted state interest, is a sufficient rationale under the Equal Protection Clause to justify a law that discriminates among groups of persons.


LAWRENCE ET AL. v. TEXAS, 539 U.S. 558 (2003).

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 03:41 am
@Debra Law,
DL quoted-

Quote:
He said he would support the decision being returned to the states instead of the Federal government deciding because "I'm a federalist."


It is possible to argue that returning certain decisions to the states strengthens the federal system and is thus "federalist". It is called "subsidiarity" in Catholic theology. If reserving too many issues to the federal authority weakens the federal system then that would be anti-federalist.

The strength or the weakness of the federal system being the key point and not some pedantic constitutional interpretation.

A silly example that makes the point. Building regulations only cover some aspects of construction. They do not cover such things as colour of paintwork except in highly controlled systems.

You seem to me Debra to be ignoring subsidiarity with a view to imposing your position on abortion on states which have a strong religious tradition. That can be seen as totalitarian and weakening the federal system by bringing it into disrepute in certain areas. You are a "centralist" irrespective of whether that strengthens or damages the federal system of government.

I think Mr McCain's claim to be a federalist reasonable and he has an argument that you are anti-federalist.

I think you rely too much on definitions and not enough on the grain of human nature.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 03:54 am
Is McCain advising President Bush to veto the rescue plan that McCain himself voted for?

McCain: 'A waste of taxpayers' dollars'

Quote:
JOE SCARBOROUGH, CO-HOST, 'MORNING JOE': We’ve got Sen. John McCain, and we can ask him. Let’s bring in now, Republican presidential nominee, Sen. John McCain.

Sen. McCain, all morning we’ve been showing some of the pork through tax extenders that was put into this bill last night. Please explain to Americans, and let’s put the list up again. You’ve got almost $200 million in this bill for tax breaks for Puerto Rican and Virgin Island rum producers, $128 million for people who make auto racing tracks, wool research, kids wooden arrows $6 million.

Here, we have what Warren Buffet’s calling our economic Pearl Harbor, and the Senate still can’t help themselves. Why did these items have to be in this critical bill?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, that’s just the way the system is working in Washington and the reason why it’s got to be fixed and it’s got to be changed. And no matter what the stakes are, you’ve got to stop this by starting to veto bills that come across the president’s desk. They can’t help themselves.

And if you like some of those pork barrel projects, look at some of the ones that Sen. Obama has proposed. Over $932 million worth of pork of barrel projects.

* * *

MIKA BRZEZINSKI, CO-HOST, 'MORNING JOE': Senator, it’s Mika Brzezinski here in New York, and we’ll be watching the debate tonight to see what happens. I want to just ask you one final question, though, about the bill because I think given, especially what you’ve been just saying on our broadcast right now, why then didn’t you vote against a bill that is corrupting and stand up to pork and all this spending during an economic crisis that some say this-puts this country on the brink of-of economic disaster?

MCCAIN: Because of what you just said, Mika, that this bill is putting us on the brink of economic disaster. There were plenty of other bills that I fought against, voted against-well, the bill to-you know, the Medicare prescription drug program, I was-I voted against it because it didn’t-because of the fact that it wasn’t paid for. We’re laying the cost on to future generations of Americans.

I’ve fought against plenty of bills. I am proud of my work spending my campaign, coming back to Washington, getting the Republicans at the table which they were not, improving the bill, and I believe it will pass.

Sen. Obama phoned it in.

BRZEZINSKI: But if we’re going to have leadership through a crisis like this, and if we’re going to look to you for that leadership, don’t we have to stand up to the very things that are bringing Washington and, at this point, Wall Street, down?

MCCAIN: If you look at the Citizens for a Sound Economy, the National Taxpayers Union, the Citizens against Government Waste, I have been a hero to them because I have fought continuously, continuously against these.

Sen. Obama has never stood up to the leadership of his party on any issue. Not a one. And I fought the leadership of my party and I have had success. I saved the taxpayers $6.8 billion on a tanker deal that was-that was going to cost the taxpayers that much because of this cozy deal. It ended up with people in jail.

I investigated Jack Abramoff, the leading-and he’s now in jail. The leading lobbyist in Washington, I fought against his pork barrel spending. And my record is very clear. Sen. Obama never has. There’s a difference.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26993024/page/2/

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 09:06 am
Announced yesterday that McCain is pulling his campaign out of Michigan and basically conceding it to Obama.


If the current leaners hold up based on the electoral map on real clear politics, Obama only needs one or at most 2 states(NH and NV) of the 9 toss up to win the election.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 10:35 am
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

Quote:
Just watched the VP debate. The format precludes using strict debate judging, but as an old debate judge, I had to give Biden the edge on points made. The problem is, I think the full analysis tomorrow will show that the flat out misrepresented or lied on a whole bunch of points and she on not much. On likability she won and also made huge points on a positive and forward looking emphasis while Biden spent almost all of his time pointing backwards. Whether the MSM will report that accurately tomorrow is anybody's guess.


Please provide that "whole bunch of points" that you accuse Biden of misrepresenting or lying about.

Why are you against "pointing backwards?" Because doing so hurts your political team? Obama and Biden are running their campaign on the basis of needed change--and McCain doesn't represent that change--McCain is simply more of the same. As Biden said, the past is a prologue to the future if McCain is elected. Although it benefits the Republicans to divert attention away from the disaster of the last 8 years under a Republican administration, Obama and Biden will make the decisions concerning the points they will emphasize during the course of their campaign--not the Republicans.


I am against 'pointing backwards' because it is not useful and that is generally as much of a lie or as distorted as the other stuff. If a campaign is so proud of its platform, why wouldn't it be pointing forward to the great accomplishments yet to come?

But in response to your request for the misstatements and lies from last night's debate, here is a sampling. To be fair I included Palin's too.

Where Palin got it wrong:

Palin incorrectly said the troop levels in Iraq had reached pre surge levels. The levels are coming down but won’t reach pre surge levels until early next year, if then.

Palin was incorrect when she said Obama’s tax plan would raise taxes on families making $42,000 a year. In fact, Obama’s tax plan would allow the tax code to revert to pre-Bush-tax-cut levels which would have the effect of increasing taxes on singles making $42,000 a year, couples earning $83,000, family of four $90,000.

Palin exaggerated the total number of times Obama and/or Biden have voted to increase taxes and incorrectly stated they voted for the largest tax increase in history. (It was actually the 3rd largest tax increase in history.)

Palin claimed that McCain’s healthcare plan would be budget neutral; however that has not yet been substantiated. (The Brookings Institute estimates McCain’s healhcare plan would increase the deficit by $1.3 trillion over 10 years; Obama’s healthcare plan would increase the deficit by $1.6 trillion over 10 years. (However, most liberals won’t accept Brookings Institute numbers so it’s anybody’s guess.)

Palin exaggerated Obama’s healthcare plan implying that it would be a government run program when in fact only parts of it would be government run as it is currently described.

Palin said millions of small businesses would be affected by Obama’s proposed tax increases on the ‘wealthy’ and that is likely an exaggeration. The Urban-Brookings tax center says it would affect only several hundred thousand small businesses.

Where Biden got it wrong

Biden incorrectly said ““John McCain voted the exact same way”” as Obama on a controversial troop funding bill. The two were actually on opposite sides

Biden wrongly claimed that McCain ““voted the exact same way”” as Obama on the budget bill that contained an increase on singles making as little as $42,000 a year. McCain voted against it. Biden was referring to an amendment that didn't address taxes at that income level.

Biden wrongly claimed that McCain had said "he wouldn't even sit down" with the government of Spain. McCain did not say that.

Palin: "Barack Obama voted against funding troops there after promising that he would not do so……He turned around under political pressure and he voted against funding the troops. ..."

Biden: John McCain voted the exact same way. John McCain voted against
funding the troops because of an amendment he voted against had a timelinein it to draw down American troops. And John said I'm not going to fund
the troops if in fact there's a time line.

This referred to a couple of 2007 votes. Obama voted for a bill that included withdrawing troops from Iraq. McCain was absent at the time and didn’’t vote at all. McCain did oppose the bill, and he urged President Bush to veto it. Bush did. Obama then voted against the same bill without withdrawal language.

Biden denied that Obama supported increasing taxes for families making $42,000 a year (true) "" but then falsely claimed that McCain had cast an identical vote

Biden said the General McKiernan recently said a surge like was done in Iraq would not work in Afghanistan. McKiernan did not say that - he said he didn’t use the word ‘surge’ but in fact an infusion of additional troops in Afghanistan was needed as quickly as possible.

Palin accused Biden of rejecting clean coal technology. That one is a stretch since Biden has generally been in favor of clean coal, but there was this exchange (YouTube) when Biden was shaking hands with people in Ohio:

Woman: "Wind and solar are flourishing here in Ohio, why are you supporting clean coal?"

Biden: "We’re not supporting clean coal. Guess what? China’s building two every week, two dirty coal plants, and it’’s polluting the United States. It’s causing people to die."

Biden claimed that McCain said in a magazine article that he wanted to deregulate the health care industry as the banking industry had been. That’’s taking McCain’’s words out of context. As we’’ve said before, he was talking specifically about his proposal to allow the sale of health insurance across state lines.

Biden said five times that McCain's tax plan would give oil companies a "$4 billion tax cut." FACT: McCain’’s plan would cut the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 25 percent "" for ALL corporations, not just oil companies. (According to FactCheck.org with its own Democratic ties, Biden's estimate for the benefit to oil companies comes from a Democratic think tank.)

Biden said that Iraq had an "$80 billion surplus." The Iraqis actually have $29 billion in the bank.

Biden said four times that McCain had voted 20 times against funding alternative energy. McCain consistently votes against all spending that can't be supported with reasonable expectations of doing some good and that including voting against 11 bills, not 20, that included funding for alternative energy. McCain has consistently voted against mandatory use of alternative energy and he has voted in favor of allowing exemptions from such use.
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 11:35 am
@Debra Law,
Your definition of Federalist is too narrow. In US politics, the term is most usually attached to a those who promoted the system that came to be embodied in the Constitution ratified on June 23, 1788. Both Madison and Adams originally conceived of a Constitution that probably more closely matched you definition. The failure of the Confederation was in large measure due to its fragmentation and refusal of the various States to support any central government. The weaknesses of the Confederation weren't new. Even during the Revolution, the inability of the States to work in a concerted manner resulted in worthless currency ("Not worth a Continental"), and an army that went bare foot in the Winter snows. After the War, the States widely adopted a model State's Constitution designed by Adams that provided for bicameral legislatures, an Executive Branch and a Supreme Court. There were, however great differences in the final product and the States still retained all of their soveriegnty. The mere suggestion that a strong central government was regarded with horror since retention of State soveriegnty was the "cause" of the Revolution in the first place. Inside the various States there were strong local movement to only accept those laws that the citizens directly favored and voted on. There were movements to redistribute the wealth and property of the "wealthy" to those without.

In the wake of victory the economy was a shambles, there was no stable currency that was universally accepted, and every State had huge debt from the War. I don't know this for sure, but I believe that the total indebtedness of the Revolution assumed eventually by the Federal government was pretty much the equivilent of trillions of dollars today. Perhaps one of our bean counters can research that. The various States set their own foreign policy and enforced customs duties with their sister States. The central government was so weak that many States never bothered to send any representatives to the Congress. Huge numbers of people were without work, ships lay unmanned in the harbors while crops rotted in the fields. "It looks like curtains, Rocco!"

The cure to the nation's problems was obvious to Adams and Madison. They favored a strong central government whose authority could not be challenged by the States. Indeed as I've noted before, the feeling amongst purists was to abolish the States entirely as an institution. When the Constitutional Convention was convened, the movers and shakers of the Annapolis meeting (the States didn't send enough representatives to that effort to amend the Confederation) were ready with the Virginia Resolution designed by Madison, Adams and presented by Edmund Randolf. The Virginia Resolution would essentially scrap the Articles of Confederation and substitute for them a new Constitution that featured a strong central government. Washington and Franklin's support of this move gave it legitimacy, and the Convention began its deliberations after swearing all representatives to absolute secrecy.

The Virginia Resolution, being the only proposal on the table, was center stage. It quickly became evident that the Virginia Resolution was unacceptable to a large number of representatives and the States they represented. The small States, like Rhode Island, were unwilling to surrender their sovereignty to the large and populous States, like Virgina. And the large States wouldn't be dictated to by the minorities of the small States. Out of the arguments, a series of compromises evolved to meet the objections. The States would retain their sovereignty over local affairs, while matters of national importance would be ceded to the central government. Madison and Adams at the time regarded this as a death knell for their plan. The idea of a bicameral legislature already existed, but as a sop to the States they were left to select their Senators in any manner they pleased. Congressmen would be elected by the people at large (white males with a nominal amount of property) in numbers determined by a census, and each State would have two Senators whose terms would belonger and overlap. The Senate representing vested interests and the political influence of those with wealth and property became a check against the more popularly elected Congress. The Electoral College was designed to prevent large and populous States from dominating the Executive Branch where the powers of the President were very great and far reaching. Most of the arguments, discussions and consideration centered on the Executive and Legislative Branches as the representatives hammered out compromises that would be acceptable to their principals.

Some elements were so sensitive and divisive that no definitive resolution was possible. The two most important of those was undoubtedly the issue of how slavery would be abolished within the new nation, and a clear "demarcation line" between the sovereignty of the central government and local governments. The Plantation States of the South would never agree to outright emancipation, and the Mercantile States of the North would never agree to be forced into accepting slavery on their own soil. The issue was essentially shelved to be resolved in the future. Instead of slavery dying out of its own accord, it became increasingly a contentious issue between the States that culminated in the Civil War. Between the ratification of the Constitution and the Late Unpleasantness, there were a series of State v. Federal confrontations over whose sovereignty was superior.

Elsewhere I've listed a few of the more notable collisions over the question of just how far the Federal sovereignty might extend. Under Washington and Adams, the Federal government asserted itself widely and the deplorable conditions that led to the scrapping of the Confederation were first mitigated, and then reversed. Hamilton's efforts at the Treasury were adoption of a sound currency, and the assumption of the various State's War Debts were essential to the recovery. The anti-Federalists, and those who chaffed even under their State's governments were outraged. Washington used Federal troops to enforce the Federal policies, and was branded a would-be monarch. Washington's prestige protected him from some of the worst invective, but Adams caught the full blast. Jefferson undermined the policies of first Washington, and then Adams. Jefferson paid "journalists" to make really vicious attacks on the President, and his Federalist supporters. Those attacks, by the way, were pretty much the same as those we've seen leveled against Bush and his administrations over the past two terms. Adams, a difficult personality, didn't help matters and the Federalists in Congress passed a series of legislation called the "Alien & Sedition Acts" that called for prosecution of those who published scurrilous and untrue stories about the government, or it's officials. Bad idea. Jefferson seized upon the Sedition Acts and increased his attacks. Hamilton who hated Adams, in the meantime, undermined the Federalist Ticket. The Jefferson/Burr ticket won, but ended in a tie. Hamilton rallied the Federalists and offered to support Burr, if only Burr would agree to leave important Federalist elements of the government untouched. Burr wouldn't agree to that, and subsequently lost the Presidency to Jefferson in the House. The newly elected Jefferson promptly used the Sedition Acts to silence his opponents, and became a life-long enemy of Burr, but that's another story.

At the end of the Convention it was still very unclear if the Constitution would be ratified by enough State conventions (not States themselves) to replace the Articles. Some of the most able and patriotic leaders of the past were absolutely against the proposed Constitution as a betrayal of the Revolution. Among those, most notably was Jefferson who at the time was living in Paris and supporting the French Revolution even as it was turning to wide-spread chaos and Terror. In an attempt to persuade Americans to ratify the Constitution, Madison, Hamilton and Jay collaborated on a series of pamphlets that remain one of the cornerstones of the US political system, The Federalist. That collection of essays came to define the term "Federalist". Though not so well known there were "anti-Federalist" pamphlets as well, and a thorough study of the period would be incomplete without reference to the full body of argument.

The Constitutions was ratified, though conditionally upon the attachment to the primary document of a Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments to the Constitution. George Mason of Virginia is generally given credit for those.

With the election of Jefferson in 1800, the political philosophy tended to favor the contraction of Federal power. The Army was reduced to a palace guard, and the Navy consisted of shallow water gunboats. Jefferson's economic policies spelled the end of the economic recovery. US Merchantmen were stopped on the high seas and American sailors were impressed into the British navy, while Jefferson continued to openly support the French. Jefferson's answer to the foreign relations problem was strict neutrality, and an embargo was put in place that froze American shipping. The result was a return to the economic depression of the post-Revolution period. Jefferson, though completely opposed to granting much power to the central government, bought the Louisiana Territories from Napoleon strictly on his own authority as President. Good deal and a great decision, but also one of the greatest "flip-flops" in American political history. Jefferson managed to avoid being drawn into the European war, but his successor and protege Madison could not avoid the conflict. Southern war-hawks were demanding action to open up the world's markets again for their products, and the War of 1812 resulted. The New England States, still largely Federalist threatened secession and objected to a war far less justified than Iraq. Bad mistake on their part, because that pretty much spelled the end of the Federalists as an important political force. Quincy and Jackson began a long line of Presidents whose political philosophy could be traced back primarily to the Democratic-Republicans of Jefferson. That era ended with Lincoln and the Republican Party then remained dominant until the election of Wilson in the early 20th century. During both those long periods where one Party tended to dominate, there were the occasional exceptions but those exceptions were few and far between.

0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 12:12 pm
BTW, the Democratic Party remained consistently in favor of States Rights, and very limited Federal government right up into the mid-20th century. They were still arguing State's Rights as a justification for their Jim Crow Laws in the 1960's. To be fair, the Democratic Party's began shifting toward a strong central government during the popular FDR administration. That shift increased, and may have reached its epitome with the Great Society legislation of LBJ. Between 1945 and 1965, the Democratic Party was divided into two opposing camps: The Dixicrats of the Deep South continued to argue State's Rights and segregation, while the mainstream Democratic Party became ever more in favor of using the Federal government to right what they believed to be social wrongs and injustices.

Eisenhower got elected largely on the basis of his WWII service and his promise to get us out of the Korean War. The turmoil and chaos surrounding the increasingly unpopular Vietnamese War helped elect Nixon, and Ford's administration was almost totally swamped by the problems of restoring at least minimal faith in the Office of President. We elected Carter, because we as a People wanted an outsider with impeccable credentials for openness, honesty and willingness to negotiate and compromise. Whoops, saints may be admirable, but they don't seem to be very effective as Presidents. The failures of the Carter administration led to the election of The Great Communicator, and his administration was a success by almost any measure. President Bush was effective, but lost to Clinton after having to retreat from his famous, "Watch my lips. I will not raise taxes."

In these past 30-40 years the whole nation has come to accept large government with an army of bureaucrats invading almost every aspect of our personal and social lives. There have been great benefits from many of those programs, and even the suggestion that they might be scaled back would unleash a storm of public protest. I see in the McCain-Palin Ticket at least the suggestion that we might move incrementally back toward a far more constrained Federal Government. McCain hasn't just talked about change, he has been a major change element during his entire time in the Senate, even when many of the changes he's supported go against our Party's line. I see the McCain-Palin Ticket as forward looking, and practical in its approach to the problems facing the nation and the world.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 12:19 pm
The NRO on line has identified other 'fabrications' in Biden's spiels in the debate last night. I do not suggest that the NRO is an unbiased site, but they generally do pretty good scholarship:
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTVhMThlNjRkZGFlMmUwOWFkNDZkZjk0MzBiY2JiYmY=
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 12:41 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

(However, most liberals won’t accept Brookings Institute numbers so it’s anybody’s guess.)

Those numbers came from the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center. You remember, the one we argued about in this very thread. Me saying it was a legitimate source and you preferring to take the word of a Forbes op-ed.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 12:48 pm
@FreeDuck,
Okay my mistake. So the liberals should be really happy to accept the numbers. Good catch FD. (Forbes is still less biased, but if Brookings data supports the right side of the ledger, I'm not going to argue with it. The evidence must be pretty convincing, huh?)
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 01:24 pm
@Foxfyre,
Stop trying to talk like a bloke Foxy. It doesn't kid me.

One of the Sunday Times's most experienced lady feechewer writers last week admitted that ladies prefer a bit of rough handling. They have, it seems, gone off Mr Nice Guy who gives into to their every whim for one reason or another. Perhaps they know, like Shakespeare did, that their gratified whims lead to misery and that they need protecting from themselves.

And Lord knows that's a reasonable thing for them to be dimly aware of.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 02:18 pm
@spendius,
Rough handling huh? Would you be married Mr. Spendi?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 02:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
It was nothing to do with me Foxy. It was Ms Imelda Knight who said it.

Do you often ask messenger boys whether they are betrothed?
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 02:37 pm
@spendius,
Ah okay. You are correct. I wonder if Ms. Knight owns padded cuffs and a leather harness?

Seriously, I think nobody enjoys rough handling. But all honorable people do appreciate being treated honestly, respectfully, and fairly. I think honorable women vieing for the same position as a man want no better, no worse, no different treatment than the man receives whether that treatment is rough or 'nice'.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 03:07 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
It is possible to argue that returning certain decisions to the states strengthens the federal system and is thus "federalist".


Did you read the case clips that I provided? Fundamental FEDERAL constitutional law PROHIBITS "returning certain decisions" to the the states. In order to "return certain decisions" to the states, prohibitions written into the FEDERAL consitution would have to be amended or ignored. Amending or ignoring FEDERAL constitutional provisions for the puspose of "returning certain decisions" to the states does not strengthen the federal system-- it weakens the federal system. It is possible for you to argue that "up" is "down," but that doesn't mean you have a rational argument.

spendius wrote:
You seem to me Debra to be ignoring subsidiarity with a view to imposing your position on abortion on states which have a strong religious tradition.


You seem to be ignoring the fundamental principle that fueled the federalist goal to create a strong federal government via a federal constitution. The goal was to REMOVE "certain decisions" from the realm of state control and place that power in a strong federal government. I'm not imposing MY position on states--the FEDERAL government is imposing its consitutional principles on the states. For instance, the FEDERAL constitution prohibits the states from discriminating against blacks and making them sit at the back of the bus. Perhaps racial segregation comports with some moral or religious traditions of a state (i.e., God created a superior white race to enslave and rule over other races), but our FEDERAL constitutional jurisprudence prohibits the states from discriminating based on race.

Quote:
(McCain) said he would support the decision being returned to the states instead of the Federal government deciding because "I'm a federalist."


McCain stated that he supported returning the abortion decision to the states. The explanation he gave for supporting the decision was BECAUSE he was a "federalist."

I'm a "federalist" because I believe in a strong federal government. I believe that certain decisions ought to be removed from state control for the best interests of the people as a whole. I believe the original "federalists" accomplished that goal via a strong federal constitution. I don't want the protections of our federal constitution diluted, weakened, or rendered useless by "returning certain decisons" to the states.

According to you, however, EVERYONE is arguably a "federalist." If McCain is a federalist and I'm a federalist--and we have opposing views on the same subject--how can McCain justify his view BECAUSE he proclaims himself to be a federalist? It makes no sense.

McCain--a REPUBLICAN--could have said, "I support returning the abortion issue to the states because I'm a DEMOCRAT." If I had jumped in and stated that his statement is irrational because he is NOT a democrat--you and the others would jump in to somehow rationalize the irrational. This Republican game of double-speak--designed to deceive the ignorant public--is tiresome.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 03:08 pm
This story blew my mind, and should serve to warn Conservatives and Republicans that this Nov. is not going to be pretty.

Quote:
On the Road: St. Louis County, Missouri

“We arrived in St. Louis at noon. I took a walk down by the Mississippi River and watched the logs that came floating from Montana in the north " grand Odyssean logs of our continental dream.”

" Jack Kerouac, “On the Road”

2008.10.03 - 538 Missouri 02 - SL County Volunteers (01)


The meat of this post is below the slideshow, and it’s about the McCain ground game. It's probably going to make a little stir.

Our apologies in advance to the Obama organizers and volunteers who aren’t going to get the full justice they deserve in this post. They believe Missouri is going blue this year, and they’re working their bodies into the ground to make that happen.

We’re getting used to this relentless Obama operation: organizers trained in both tactics and campaign culture, working so hard they have trouble remembering what happened 48 hours ago " it’s too distant " and convinced that if they stay in their lane and trust the structure it’ll pay off in the end.

Obama has 40 offices now open in Missouri, and Justin Hamilton, Obama’s Press Secretary for Missouri, told us that while he couldn’t confirm below or above the published reports of 150 organizers (it didn’t come from the campaign), the campaign is only adding to its ground force. Organizers have now recruited 2500 neighborhood team leaders statewide, folks who do the far more effective work than any 30-second ad or yard signs, actual face-to-face contact and persuasion of their neighbors.

For a Democrat to win Missouri, he or she has to follow the Claire McCaskill map, which is win the blue urban centers in Kansas City and St. Louis city by wide margins, hold down the losses in outstate Missouri (McCaskill spent huge time in and around Springfield, and got to 42% there while Kerry only managed 37%), and then win highly populated St. Louis County (20% of Missouri’s overall vote) by enough votes to hold on for a win. McCaskill won St. Louis County by 12, Kerry only won it by 9. Barack Obama beat Hillary Clinton in the County, 63% to 36%.

Something interesting is happening with John McCain’s campaign. Up until now, we’ve had no trouble gaining access to field offices and volunteers. Here in St. Louis, we were told by Tina Hervey, Missouri Republican State Party Press Secretary, that she had never heard of FiveThirtyEight, and while they trusted Politico, we were people who they had to decide whether we “shouldn’t or don’t need to be talking to.” (McCain’s Missouri press secretary actually works out of Iowa, and did not return calls or email.) I told Tina that’s not a story we wanted to write, that this was our first Republican resistance, and that while she may not have heard of us, we’d probably go over 2.5 million site visits this week, now that we’re regularly past 400,000 per weekday. I told her I’d hold off writing her flat refusal and give her the opportunity to change her mind.

No budging. We were told that we’d be asked to leave public field offices we now attempted to visit. We did not get any promised follow-up helping get access to the post-debate Palin rally last night, and we were locked out. Hmm.

Let’s be clear. We've observed no comparison between these ground campaigns. To begin with, there’s a 4-1 ratio of offices in most states. We walk into McCain offices to find them closed, empty, one person, two people, sometimes three people making calls. Many times one person is calling while the other small clutch of volunteers are chatting amongst themselves. In one state, McCain’s state field director sat in one of these offices and, sotto voce, complained to us that only one man was making calls while the others were talking to each other about how much they didn't like Obama, which was true. But the field director made no effort to change this. This was the state field director.

Only for the first time the other day did we see a McCain organizer make a single phone call. So we've now seen that once. The McCain organizers seem to operate as maître Ds. Let me escort you to your phone, sir. Pick any one of this sea of empty chairs. I'll be sitting over here if you need any assistance.

Given a choice between taking embarrassing photos of empty phone banks, we give McCain’s people the chance to pose for photos to show us the action for what they continually claim we “just missed.” No more. We stop into offices at all open hours of the day, but generally more in the afternoon and evening. “Call time,” for both campaigns, is all day, but the time when folks over 65 are generally targeted begins in late afternoon and goes til 8 or 9pm. Universally, McCain’s people stop earlier. Even when we show up at 6:15pm, we’re told we just missed the big phone bank, or to come back in 30 minutes. If we show up an hour later, we “just missed it” again.

The McCain offices are also calm, sedate. Little movement. No hustle. In the Obama offices, it's a whirlwind. People move. It's a dynamic bustle. You can feel it in our photos.

Up to this point, we’ve been giving McCain's ground campaign a lot of benefit of the doubt.
We can’t stop convincing ourselves that there must " must " be a warehouse full of 1,000 McCain volunteers somewhere in a national, central location just dialing away. This can’t be all they’re doing. Because even in a place like Colorado Springs, McCain’s ground campaign is getting blown away by the Obama efforts. It doesn't mean Obama will win Colorado Springs, but it means Obama's campaign will not look itself in the mirror afterward and ask, "what more could we have done?"

You could take every McCain volunteer we’ve seen doing actual work in the entire trip, over six states, and it would add up to the same as Obama’s single Thornton, CO office. Or his single Durango, CO office. These ground campaigns bear no relationship to each other.

Here on out, our skepticism is going to be higher. We truly respect organizers on both sides, because it is grindingly hard work for minimal pay. It’s powered by a belief in doing what’s right. We do not quote them or get them in trouble. Moreover, we truly respect direct action by volunteers " who do exist on the McCain side, just as a tiny, tiny fraction of the Obama side " but if the attitude continues on this unhelpful and obstructive turn, we’re going to spend less time making excuses for what we observe. Less benefit of the doubt. Show us real work and we'll cover it. We want to.

We'll be up in Chicago tonight making Nate pound RCP shooters. Then, Indiana. There's a huge story unfolding in Indiana.


http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/on-road-st-louis-county-missouri.html

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 03:34 pm
@Debra Law,
DL- I never even mentioned "certain decisions". Subsidiarity obviously leaves "certain decisions" to the state and reserves "certain decisions" to itself. Perhaps you don't understand the principle. So you are stating the obvious.

The question is which category abortion comes into. Mr McCain obviously thinks the former.

You cannot reasonably assert that "Amending or ignoring FEDERAL constitutional provisions for the puspose of "returning certain decisions" to the states does not strengthen the federal system-- it weakens the federal system. Your assertion may carry weight where you are but it doesn't with me. The whole purpose of subsidiarity is to strengthen the whole. That's why it is "catholic". It embraces all sorts of things as long as the key dogmas are held to. Whether abortion is one of those is a matter of opinion from a federalist point of view.

Your assertion leads eventually to "no decisions" being left to the states which is, I presume, what your sort of federalist wishes to see.

You are in an argument with Mr McCain over what policy strengthens the Union. Or weakens it.

Quote:
McCain--a REPUBLICAN--could have said, "I support returning the abortion issue to the states because I'm a DEMOCRAT." If I had jumped in and stated that his statement is irrational because he is NOT a democrat--you and the others would jump in to somehow rationalize the irrational. This Republican game of double-speak--designed to deceive the ignorant public--is tiresome.


I won't say that's incoherent. Just that it escapes my comprehension.

You really didn't ought to use words like "tiresome" about your opponents. They might suggest that it proves it is past your bedtime.

Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 04:06 pm
@spendius,
Spendius: I understand the basics of federal constitutional law in the United States that serves as the backbone of our federal system of government. McCain apparently doesn't understand, and you apparently don't understand--and you don't want to understand. I might as well be talking to the wall and that is indeed tiresome. McCain is NOT a federalist.

Finally, if McCain is a federalist, and I'm a federalist, and you're a federalist, and everyone is a federalist, and we all have different positions on the same subject, then McCain's justification for supporting his position BECAUSE he claims to be a federalist renders his justification wholly meaningless. You're trying to rationalize something irrational.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 04:14 pm
A sampling of political cartoons re the Palin/Biden debate:

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/aria081005.jpg

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gm081001.jpg

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/bg1002j.jpg

http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoons/HarviV/2008/HarviV20081002_low.jpg

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/a/L/2/biden-vs-palin.jpg

 

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