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FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 09:42 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

"undercut" and "brand as" are NOT what they are being told to do by the Obama campaign. It is the word chosen by the author. It could be the wrong word choice for all we know.

You make it plain all right. You want to believe it is an attack so will accept the word chosen and then blow it up beyond that word choice without regard to what the underlying facts really are.

Meanwhile you completely ignore the author's choice of the words "withering attack" in describing what Palin did. I see his word choice there as overblown so can only assume his other choices are as well.


Yes, it could be the wrong word choice for all we know. But everything I've been reading re Obama's new strategy, including the clip CI just posted, suggests that the author is quite appropriate in the word choices.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not faulting Obama for doing it. I AM faulting those, including him, who suggest he is above that sort of thing. To that I say baloney. Especially when he is becoming increasingly shrill and frantic and defensive in his rhetoric. Almost all news stories today were full of Obama condemning McCain and Palin for criticizing Obama.

(Yes his primary thrust is to condemn them for distorting his record/words etc. even as he distorts theirs. Smile)
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 09:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
One of Obama's strategies now seems to be victimhood.

Lets take this religion thing. He constantly claims he is Christian, thats fine and dandy, but he should realize that some things about his church are a very contradictory to most Christian beliefs and that he therefore should not blame people for being a bit puzzled. Lets take the Black Liberation theology. It is very strong on being devoted to Africa, and some kind of political program relative to liberating blacks, which is not very mainstream Christian. Also, some have claimed the church has openly Muslim members. I don't know if this is true, but it has been reported. Also, the pastors, they have made some very controversial statements, and Wright openly admires Farrakhan, whats up with that? And Obama himself went to the million man march, didn't he? So how can he blame people for being a bit puzzled over it and being somewhat suspicious about what Obama's beliefs really are. I won't accuse him of being a Muslim, but I honestly don't know where he is coming from in regard to his religion. What I do know does not gender alot of trust.

Contrast that with somebody like Romney, a Mormon. Lots of funny beliefs in the Mormon way, but I see nothing there that is anti-American or sympathetic to Islam, same with most other Christian religions, I would simply say hey, that is their business. But in the case of Obama, alot of things don't really add up, from my reading of it, his church is more of a political organization than it is a church or religion.

Just my opinion, Democrats and Obama defenders, go ahead and pile on, but thats how I see it, and I suspect that if most people are honest, they would also agree.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 09:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The bridge to nowhere was not a good project, probably, but I suspect there are thousands of projects that we never hear about that are more useless than it was. And it is probably a useful project, just that the Alaskans should pay for it if they want it, just like everywhere else. I constantly hear of grants for this and that. Grants have to be the worst invention ever.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 09:59 pm
@okie,
My post about Obama playing the victim in regard to his religion, my point was that his complaints in that regard are a bit tiresome, and surely he is not so naive as to believe that some of the stuff about his pastor, his church, as I outlined above, are not going to gender questions and distrust. I think he knows that, or should know that, and I wonder sometimes if it isn't intentional, its all part of the game he plays, which includes playing dumb.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 10:16 pm
@okie,
That bridge to nowhere has been HUGE in the Obama rhetoric the last couple of days. Yes Sarah flipflopped on that, but geez....she was the mayor of a little town and her Senator offered her a bridge. She almost certainly didn't have time to think that through or hear the criticisms against it when she said great.

I can certainly see how, with more experience under her belt and from the perspective of a Governor with major budget decisions to make, she could change her mind about that and think it wasn't such a good idea. And then decline it. It wasn't out of political expediency for sure since the office of vice president for her wasn't even a gleam in anybody's eye at the time.

I don't expect the Obama campaign to be magnanimous or honest about that any more than they are being honest about anything to do with Sarah Palin, but I think it is probably time to start countering it with some of Obama's major flipflops. And he has pulled some doozies. The difference between him and her is he tries to pretend 'well he really didn't mean it before' or 'that isn't what I intended' or 'I didn't say it in exactly that way' or any number of other phrases to deny a flipflip.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 10:18 pm
@okie,
Probably? Come on, okie, let's play honest here. It's pork with a capital "P."
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 10:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yes which she no doubt came to realize. Which is why, as Governor, she elected to refuse it. As I explained in some detail.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 10:24 pm
@Foxfyre,
Fox, She still accepted the funding for it.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 10:26 pm
@Foxfyre,
I had a fairly lengthy discussion about 'pork' with our elected representative here some time back. He didn't like it but he was powerless to stop it. And he rationalized that if the money is going to be distributed back to the states regardless, our state should get a fair share. So he applied for it in areas where he thought there was the greatest need. And he snagged some.

But I've also read of some of the horrendously expensive and completely ridiculous grants and various projects that go into the pork just so elected representatives can brag about what they have done for their state.

I think we should throw EVERYBODY OUT and start over with a clear mandate of what is and is not the appropriate function of government.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 10:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
CI she agreed to it as mayor but never received the funding because it was blocked in Congress. As governor she did not accept it at all. She never got the bridge. She never got the money to build a bridge. She changed her mind and refused the bridge. Okay?
okie
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 10:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
How many mayors wouldn't, ci?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 06:44 am
@okie,
Okie and Fox..
You might want to check your atlas or some other map of Alaska.
Wasilla is NOT Ketchican. In fact it isn't even CLOSE to Ketchikan. The are about 1000 miles apart.

As mayor of Wasilla, Palin had no reason to support the bridge to nowhere.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 07:42 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

CI she agreed to it as mayor but never received the funding because it was blocked in Congress. As governor she did not accept it at all. She never got the bridge. She never got the money to build a bridge. She changed her mind and refused the bridge. Okay?


Err, you are half right. She never got the bridge, but she did get the money for the bridge.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 07:53 am
@FreeDuck,
Maybe more like 1/4 right. (Or less.)

As governor, she wanted it, but she didn't get ENOUGH money for it, to her dismay:

Quote:
It's bogus to say that Palin turned on the project because the costs ballooned. The real reason she came around to opposing it was not that the overall costs went up -- the project was always a boondoggle, and costs were always going up -- but that one particular element of the project's cost ballooned: The portion that Alaska would have to pay, instead of getting the money through federal pork.

In her statement finally ending the project, Palin explicitly lamented that fact. "Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329-million short of full funding for the bridge project," Palin said at the time, "and it's clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island."

As for the claim that Palin drove a stake into the project's heart, the project was practically dead already by the time Palin officially shut it down, as the non-partisan CQ's PolitiFact section pointed out. She shut it down after it became clear that Congress would no longer fund it -- meaning that Alaska would have to use its own $329 million to build it, thus leaving Palin no other choice but to shut it down.

Bottom line: Palin did not tell Congress, "Thanks, but no thanks," on the bridge. It was Congress who cut off the money to Alaska. Oh, and she didn't Say No To Pork, either -- when Congress wouldn't spend that money on the Bridge, Congress did allow her to keep it for other projects. And she did.


http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/mccain_campaign_piling_up_the.php

Links/ cites in original.
Foxfyre
 
  3  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:24 am
@sozobe,
After doing some research, you are correct that Palin initially supported the Bridge which was actually part of the normal Federal apportionment to Alaska and turned down the money when it was determind that it was insufficient to build the bridge. So while she is technically correct that she turned it down, she may be stretching it as to her motives for doing so. (Imagine a politician doing that!)

I could find nothing that indicated she had any official position on it as Mayor and, as Parados pointed out, she would have no logical official interest in a bridge many miles from her town. So any flip flop here appears to have happened when she was Governor and was based on fiscal practicality rather than on any outright rejection of the bridge. But she isn't lying when she says that she refused the bridge either, because in the end she did.

Another factor could be related to the real catfight that occurred between the media and Alaska's Congressional delegation. The Bridge really was never about the Governor

Excerpt
Quote:
The bridge has become an object of national ridicule and a symbol of the fiscal irresponsibility of many in Congress toward the money entrusted to them by the taxpayers. It has also become an embarrassment to the people of Alaska and to responsible members of Congress who now find themselves tarred by the same brush dipped in the muck of the highway bill.

In response to this national humiliation, many in Alaska have vented their anger in the state’s newspapers, and the papers’ editors have also objected to the bridge on their editorial pages.

In the Anchorage Daily News, Diane Mucha of Eagle River wrote, “Of course, Alaska should and, hopefully, will volunteer to reject the money for the bridges to nowhere and Congress will apply the money for the hurricane relief efforts.”

David Raskin of Homer, Alaska, wrote, “Alaskans owe an apology to the people of New Orleans, to Alaska Native people and to the Nation for their selfish shortsightedness in sending these scoundrels to Washington and voting to keep them there.”

In the Ketchikan News, Dave Person wrote, “Thinking about the immense disaster in the Gulf States, it occurred to me that the most effective thing that the residents of Ketchikan could do to help would be to return the money earmarked for our Gravina Bridge.”

Back in Anchorage, Art Weiner wrote, “In a collective act of passion, the people of Alaska should request that the funds appropriated for our bridges be used for infrastructure reconstruction in the hurricane-affected area.”

Despite the willingness of many in Alaska to give back the bridge to pay for disaster relief, Alaska’s congressional delegation has dug in its heels, and many of the delegation’s colleagues, including all of congressional leadership, support its resistance. If Alaska loses some of its pork, they fear, so might they.

In opposing Senator Coburn’s amendment to defund the bridge, one prominent Senator told a closed-door meeting of conservatives that the plan was simply impractical. Many of the earmarks, he claimed, are counted towards a state’s equity bonus and thus are part of the state-by-state allocation formula. Defunding the bridge, he said, would direct at most $75 million to Louisiana, with the remaining $148 million returning to Alaska as money the state could use at its discretion for road projects.

Never mind that the Senator seems to view $75 million in taxpayers’ dollars as a sum of little consequence; what the Senator sees as a problem in fact would be a considerable benefit to Alaska. Assuming the Senator’s numbers are right, Alaska’s Department of Transportation would gain $148 million in money it could spend on the state’s transportation priorities instead of a useless bridge that would serve a tiny fraction of the state’s citizens.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/wm889.cfm


And when Sarah turned down the bridge, she angered that Congressional delegation too:
Quote:
On Friday, Alaska decided the bridge really was going nowhere, officially abandoning the project in Ketchikan that became a national symbol of federal pork-barrel spending.

While the move closes a chapter that has brought the state reams of ridicule, it also leaves open wounds in a community that fought for decades to get federal help.

"We went through political hot water -- tons of it -- and not just nationally but internationally," Ketchikan-Gateway Borough Mayor Joe Williams said. "We have nothing to show for it."

The $398 million bridge would have connected Ketchikan, on one island in southeastern Alaska, to its airport on another nearby island.

Gov. Sarah Palin said Friday the project was $329 million short of full funding.

"We will continue to look for options for Ketchikan to allow better access to the island," the Republican governor said. "The concentration is not going to be on a $400 million bridge."

Palin directed state transportation officials to find the most "fiscally responsible" alternative for access to the airport. She said the best option would be to upgrade the ferry system.

Ketchikan is Alaska's entry port for northbound cruise ships that bring more than 1 million visitors yearly. Every flight into Gravina Island requires a 15-minute ferry ride to reach the more densely populated Revillagigedo Island.

The town -- seven blocks wide and eight miles long -- has little room to grow. Local officials have said access to Gravina Island, population 50, is needed for the town and its economy to grow.

They called the state's decision premature, saying it came without warning.

"For somebody who touts process and transparency in getting projects done, I'm disappointed and taken aback," said state Rep. Kyle Johansen, R-Ketchikan. "We worked 30 years to get funding for this priority project."

U.S. Sen. Ted Stevens and Rep. Don Young, both Republicans, championed the project through Congress two years ago, securing more than $200 million for the bridge between Revillagigedo and Gravina islands.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/22/alaska.bridge.ap/


That certainly backs up her credentials as a 'maverick' who is willing to buck the establishment.

All in all in those True/False analysis, we can say that Sarah's claim is partly, maybe even mostly true.

Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:31 am
@Foxfyre,
Haha, she only 'turned it down' when it became clear that the Republican party itself had singled out the bridge as a boondoggle and waste of public funds. By the time she started talking against it, it was Young and Stevens who were fighting public opinion on the issue, not Palin! She was comfortably in the mainstream the whole time.

And it's inaccurate to say she 'turned down the money.' She didn't turn down the money. They KEPT the money and spent it on other stuff. It didn't save the taxpayers a dime.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:38 am
You must be basing your opinion on what you want the situation to be Cyclop as the verifiable articles that I posted suggest differently. If you have something credible that suggests differently, let's see it.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:41 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclotrolling.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:44 am
@Foxfyre,
Let's just zoom out for a second. When Palin delivered that excellent "thanks but no thanks" line, what is the impression she left you with?

My impression was that here was a woman who ran an independent state, rejecting federal funds for boondoggles. "We'll build it ourselves." That's the American spirit. Independence! Off the federal dole!

The truth of the matter, however, leaves quite a different impression. Technically, she is right, she quashed the project. But was that because it was a waste of taxpayer money? Maybe it was a waste of Alaskan taxpayer money, but it would have been ok if all of the money came from the federal government -- meaning the rest of us. And furthermore, she did keep the money. I wonder what it was spent on. The impression I have now? She is just a regular old governor of a small state (in population) who hasn't been in power very long. She appreciates getting federal money just like every other state in the union. She shows evidence of standing against her own party. I don't know if that's on principle or because she sees the writing on the wall. Maybe it doesn't matter.
Foxfyre
 
  3  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:52 am
@FreeDuck,
If you will read what I said, you wil see that I agreed that her political rhetoric and her actual motive for rejecting the bridge doesn't wash and she wasn't telling the whole story in her rhetoric. And yes, this did (and was certainly calculated) to give a somewhat different impression than what actually happened. Which led me to my comment "Imagine a politician doing that!" As if McCain, Biden, and Obama don't all do that? A lot?

But neither was she flat out lying.

Which culminated in my conclusion that on the Truth/False meter, the statement is partly, perhaps mostly, true.
 

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