Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sat 13 Sep, 2008 10:39 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Obama recommends troop increases for Afghanistan; McCain and Bush oppose them; now, we are going with Obama's plan and increasing troop levels in Afghanistan.

Obama recommends a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq; McCain and Bush oppose them; the Iraqis agree with Obama, and we now have a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq.

Obama recommends going after high-value targets, even if they are in Pakistan; Bush and McCain oppose this; now, we are going after high-value targets in Pakistan.

Your overall point that Obama has been ahead of the curve, proposing strategies on Iraq/Afghanistan that he was attacked for only for Bush to adopt them later too is fine.

But your last point here is incorrect. When Obama was proposing going after high-value targets, even if they are in Pakistan, the Bush administration was already doing so. It was hardly some new idea Obama was pioneering.

That's what made the Republican campaign attacks on him for advocating it so ridiculous. The only argument they were left with was that sure, we are already doing exactly what you advocate, you're just not supposed to say it.


Well, I dunno about the timeline; Obama has been speaking out about going into Pakistan for what, 2 years? As far as I can tell, our incursions have been somewhat more recent then that - at least, with boots on the ground.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sat 13 Sep, 2008 10:45 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Back on topic,

Quote:
WASHINGTON - Sarah Palin's visit to Iraq in 2007 consisted of a brief stop at a border crossing between Iraq and Kuwait, the vice presidential candidate's campaign said yesterday, in the second official revision of her only trip outside North America.

Following her selection last month as John McCain's running mate, aides said Palin had traveled to Ireland, Germany, Kuwait, and Iraq to meet with members of the Alaska National Guard. During that trip she was said to have visited a "military outpost" inside Iraq. The campaign has since repeated that Palin's foreign travel included an excursion into the Iraq battle zone.

But in response to queries about the details of her trip, campaign aides and National Guard officials in Alaska said by telephone yesterday that she did not venture beyond the Kuwait-Iraq border when she visited Khabari Alawazem Crossing, also known as "K-Crossing," on July 25, 2007.


http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/09/13/palin_camp_clarifies_extent_of_iraq_trip/

So when Palin says 'I went to Iraq,' what she really meant was 'I didn't go to Iraq at all.' When her campaign said she went to a battle zone, what they meant to say was that she did not go to a battle zone.

More lies, how surprising!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Sat 13 Sep, 2008 10:58 am


Back to the topic...

Palin is an excellent choice for VP - American's should take pride in the very first female VP in history.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sat 13 Sep, 2008 11:04 am
@H2O MAN,
Pride is not something that Americans are entitled to just at the moment.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sat 13 Sep, 2008 11:23 am
Quote:
And if she’s been editing her biography, there have been plenty of helpers. “She sold the airplane; she fired the chef,” John McCain said on Friday, explaining why his running mate would be an agent of change in Washington.

If you fire the governor’s chef and then charge the state a per diem for every night you sleep in your own house, does that make you an agent of change or Charles Rangel’s accountant? And the airplane, of course, was sold so ineptly that Palin should have been encouraged to consider a new career in the home finance industry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/13/opinion/13collins.html?hp

anyone besides me think that her choice to not move to the capital shows a serious lack of judgement? That is 90 minutes on the road one way , for which the public was charged and she presummably was unproductive, she charged per diem for being home, she showed a lack of commitment to the job by choosing to commute to it, and she was away from her kids more than she needed to be. She fired the chef because she was not going to be in town enough to use a chef, not to save the public money. Overall She thumbed her nose at the public I think.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Sat 13 Sep, 2008 12:25 pm
McCain-Palin Crowd-Size Estimates Not Backed by Officials

By Lorraine Woellert and Jeff Bliss

Sept. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Senator John McCain has drawn some of the biggest crowds of his presidential campaign since adding Alaska Governor Sarah Palin to his ticket on Aug. 29. Now officials say they can't substantiate the figures McCain's aides are claiming.

McCain aide Kimmie Lipscomb told reporters on Sept. 10 that an outdoor rally in Fairfax City, Virginia, drew 23,000 people, attributing the crowd estimate to a fire marshal.

Fairfax City Fire Marshal Andrew Wilson said his office did not supply that number to the campaign and could not confirm it. Wilson, in an interview, said the fire department does not monitor attendance at outdoor events.

In recent days, journalists attending the rallies have been raising questions about the crowd estimates with the campaign. In a story on Sept. 11 about Palin's attraction for some Virginia women voters, Washington Post reporter Marc Fisher estimated the crowd to be 8,000, not the 23,000 cited by the campaign.

``The 23,000 figure was substantiated on the ground,'' McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds said. ``The campaign is willing to stand by the fact that it was our biggest crowd to date.''

``Since day one, this campaign has been consistent that we're not going to win or lose based on crowd size but the substance of John McCain's record,'' Bounds said.

Town Hall Meetings

Until Palin, 44, joined him on the campaign trail, McCain, 72, had limited his political events to smaller town hall meetings and rallies of a few hundred people. His Democratic rival, Barack Obama, an Illinois senator, routinely draws thousands of people to his speeches, a phenomenon McCain has tried to use to his advantage by labeling Obama, 47, a celebrity.

That changed on Aug. 30, at Palin's first big public appearance after her nomination. The McCain campaign said 10,000 people showed up at the Consol Energy Arena in Washington, Pennsylvania, home of the Washington Wild Things baseball team.

The campaign attributed that estimate, and several that followed, to U.S. Secret Service figures, based on the number of people who passed through magnetometers.

``We didn't provide any numbers to the campaign,'' said Malcolm Wiley, a spokesman for the U.S. Secret Service. Wiley said he would not ``confirm or dispute'' the numbers the McCain campaign has given to reporters.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Sat 13 Sep, 2008 12:52 pm
@hawkeye10,


Why would you say that?


0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 13 Sep, 2008 05:14 pm
@blueflame1,
Quote:


The New York Times
September 14, 2008

In Office, Palin Hired Friends and Hit Critics

This article is by Jo Becker, Peter S. Goodman and Michael Powell.

WASILLA, Alaska " Gov. Sarah Palin lives by the maxim that all politics is local, not to mention personal.

So when there was a vacancy at the top of the State Division of Agriculture, she appointed a high school classmate, Franci Havemeister, to the $95,000-a-year directorship. A former real estate agent, Ms. Havemeister cited her childhood love of cows as one of her qualifications for running the roughly $2 million agency.

Ms. Havemeister was one of at least five schoolmates Ms. Palin hired, often at salaries far exceeding their private sector wages.

When Ms. Palin had to cut her first state budget, she avoided the legion of frustrated legislators and mayors. Instead, she huddled with her budget director and her husband, Todd, an oil field worker who is not a state employee, and vetoed millions of dollars of legislative projects.

And four months ago, a Wasilla blogger, Sherry Whitstine, who chronicles the governor’s career with an astringent eye, answered her phone to hear an assistant to the governor on the line, she said.

“You should be ashamed!” Ivy Frye, the assistant, told her. “Stop blogging. Stop blogging right now!”

Ms. Palin walks the national stage as a small-town foe of “good old boy” politics and a champion of ethics reform. The charismatic 44-year-old governor draws enthusiastic audiences and high approval ratings. And as the Republican vice-presidential nominee, she points to her management experience while deriding her Democratic rivals, Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as speechmakers who never have run anything.

But an examination of her swift rise and record as mayor of Wasilla and then governor finds that her visceral style and penchant for attacking critics " she sometimes calls local opponents “haters” " contrasts with her carefully crafted public image.

Throughout her political career, she has pursued vendettas, fired officials who crossed her and sometimes blurred the line between government and personal grievance, according to a review of public records and interviews with 60 Republican and Democratic legislators and local officials.

Still, Ms. Palin has many supporters. As a two-term mayor she paved roads and built an ice rink, and as governor she has pushed through higher taxes on the oil companies that dominate one-third of the state’s economy. She stirs deep emotions. In Wasilla, many residents display unflagging affection, cheering “our Sarah” and hissing at her critics.

“She is bright and has unfailing political instincts,” said Steve Haycox, a history professor at the University of Alaska. “She taps very directly into anxieties about the economic future.”

“But,” he added, “her governing style raises a lot of hard questions.”

Ms. Palin declined to grant an interview for this article. The McCain-Palin campaign responded to some questions on her behalf and that of her husband, while referring others to the governor’s spokespeople, who did not respond.

Lt. Gov. Sean Parnell said Ms. Palin had conducted an accessible and effective administration in the public’s interest. “Everything she does is for the ordinary working people of Alaska,” Mr. Parnell said.

In Wasilla, a builder said he complained to Mayor Palin when the city attorney put a stop-work order on his housing project. She responded, he said, by engineering the attorney’s firing.

Interviews show that Ms. Palin runs an administration that puts a premium on loyalty and secrecy. The governor and her top officials sometimes use personal e-mail accounts for state business; dozens of e-mail messages obtained by The New York Times show that her staff members studied whether that could allow them to circumvent subpoenas seeking public records.

Rick Steiner, a University of Alaska professor, sought the e-mail messages of state scientists who had examined the effect of global warming on polar bears. (Ms. Palin said the scientists had found no ill effects, and she has sued the federal government to block the listing of the bears as endangered.) An administration official told Mr. Steiner that it would cost $468,784 to process his request.

When Mr. Steiner finally obtained the e-mail messages " through a federal records request " he discovered that state scientists had in fact agreed that the bears were in danger, records show.

“Their secrecy is off the charts,” Mr. Steiner said.

State legislators are investigating accusations that Ms. Palin and her husband pressured officials to fire a state trooper who had gone through a messy divorce with her sister, charges that she denies. But interviews make clear that the Palins draw few distinctions between the personal and the political.

Last summer State Representative John Harris, the Republican speaker of the House, picked up his phone and heard Mr. Palin’s voice. The governor’s husband sounded edgy. He said he was unhappy that Mr. Harris had hired John Bitney as his chief of staff, the speaker recalled. Mr. Bitney was a high school classmate of the Palins and had worked for Ms. Palin. But she fired Mr. Bitney after learning that he had fallen in love with another longtime friend.

“I understood from the call that Todd wasn’t happy with me hiring John and he’d like to see him not there,” Mr. Harris said.

“The Palin family gets upset at personal issues,” he added. “And at our level, they want to strike back.”

Hometown Mayor

Laura Chase, the campaign manager during Ms. Palin’s first run for mayor in 1996, recalled the night the two women chatted about her ambitions.

“I said, ‘You know, Sarah, within 10 years you could be governor,’ ” Ms. Chase recalled. “She replied, ‘I want to be president.’ ”

Ms. Palin grew up in Wasilla, an old fur trader’s outpost and now a fast-growing exurb of Anchorage. The town sits in the Matanuska-Susitna Valley, edged by jagged mountains and birch forests. In the 1930s, the Roosevelt administration took farmers from the Dust Bowl area and resettled them here; their Democratic allegiances defined the valley for half a century.

In the past three decades, socially conservative Oklahomans and Texans have flocked north to the oil fields of Alaska. They filled evangelical churches around Wasilla and revived the Republican Party. Many of these working-class residents formed the electoral backbone for Ms. Palin, who ran for mayor on a platform of gun rights, opposition to abortion and the ouster of the “complacent” old guard.

After winning the mayoral election in 1996, Ms. Palin presided over a city rapidly outgrowing itself. Septic tanks had begun to pollute lakes, and residential lots were carved willy-nilly out of the woods. She passed road and sewer bonds, cut property taxes but raised the sales tax.

And, her supporters say, she cleaned out the municipal closet, firing veteran officials to make way for her own team. “She had an agenda for change and for doing things differently,” said Judy Patrick, a City Council member at the time.

But careers were turned upside down. The mayor quickly fired the town’s museum director, John Cooper. Later, she sent an aide to the museum to talk to the three remaining employees. “He told us they only wanted two,” recalled Esther West, one of the three, “and we had to pick who was going to be laid off.” The three quit as one.

Ms. Palin cited budget difficulties for the museum cuts. Mr. Cooper thought differently, saying the museum had become a microcosm of class and cultural conflicts in town. “It represented that the town was becoming more progressive, and they didn’t want that,” he said.

Days later, Mr. Cooper recalled, a vocal conservative, Steve Stoll, sidled up to him. Mr. Stoll had supported Ms. Palin and had a long-running feud with Mr. Cooper. “He said: ‘Gotcha, Cooper,’ ” Mr. Cooper said.

Mr. Stoll did not recall that conversation, although he said he supported Ms. Palin’s campaign and was pleased when she fired Mr. Cooper.

In 1997, Ms. Palin fired the longtime city attorney, Richard Deuser, after he issued the stop-work order on a home being built by Don Showers, another of her campaign supporters.

Your attorney, Mr. Showers told Ms. Palin, is costing me lots of money.

“She told me she’d like to see him fired,” Mr. Showers recalled. “But she couldn’t do it herself because the City Council hires the city attorney.” Ms. Palin told him to write the council members to complain.

Meanwhile, Ms. Palin pushed the issue from the inside. “She started the ball rolling,” said Ms. Patrick, who also favored the firing. Mr. Deuser was soon replaced by Ken Jacobus " then the State Republican Party’s general counsel.

“Professionals were either forced out or fired,” Mr. Deuser said.

Ms. Palin ordered city employees not to talk to the press. And she used city money to buy a white Suburban for the mayor’s use " employees sarcastically called it the mayor-mobile.

The new mayor also tended carefully to her evangelical base. She appointed a pastor to the town planning board. And she began to eye the library. For years, social conservatives had pressed the library director to remove books they considered immoral.

“People would bring books back censored,” recalled former Mayor John Stein, Ms. Palin’s predecessor. “Pages would get marked up or torn out.”

Witnesses and contemporary news accounts say Ms. Palin asked the librarian about removing books from the shelves. The McCain-Palin presidential campaign says Ms. Palin never advocated censorship.

But in 1995, Ms. Palin, then a city councilwoman, told colleagues that she had noticed the book “Daddy’s Roommate” on the shelves and that it did not belong there, according to Ms. Chase and Mr. Stein. Ms. Chase read the book, which helps children understand homosexuality, and said it was inoffensive; she suggested that Ms. Palin read it.

“Sarah said she didn’t need to read that stuff,” Ms. Chase said. “It was disturbing that someone would be willing to remove a book from the library and she didn’t even read it.”

“I’m still proud of Sarah,” she added, “but she scares the bejeebers out of me.”

Reform Crucible

Restless ambition defined Ms. Palin in the early years of this decade. She raised money for Senator Ted Stevens, a Republican from the state; finished second in the 2002 Republican primary for lieutenant governor; and sought to fill the seat of Senator Frank H. Murkowski when he ran for governor.

Mr. Murkowski appointed his daughter to the seat, but as a consolation prize, he gave Ms. Palin the $125,000-a-year chairmanship of a state commission overseeing oil and gas drilling.

Ms. Palin discovered that the state Republican leader, Randy Ruedrich, a commission member, was conducting party business on state time and favoring regulated companies. When Mr. Murkowski failed to act on her complaints, she quit and went public.

The Republican establishment shunned her. But her break with the gentlemen’s club of oil producers and political power catapulted her into the public eye.

“She was honest and forthright,” said Jay Kerttula, a former Democratic state senator from Palmer.

Ms. Palin entered the 2006 primary for governor as a formidable candidate.

In the middle of the primary, a conservative columnist in the state, Paul Jenkins, unearthed e-mail messages showing that Ms. Palin had conducted campaign business from the mayor’s office. Ms. Palin handled the crisis with a street fighter’s guile.

“I told her it looks like she did the same thing that Randy Ruedrich did,” Mr. Jenkins recalled. “And she said, ‘Yeah, what I did was wrong.’ ”

Mr. Jenkins hung up and decided to forgo writing about it. His phone rang soon after.

Mr. Jenkins said a reporter from Fairbanks, reading from a Palin news release, demanded to know why he was “smearing” her. “Now I look at her and think: ‘Man, you’re slick,’ ” he said.

Ms. Palin won the primary, and in the general election she faced Tony Knowles, the former two-term Democratic governor, and Andrew Halcro, an independent.

Not deeply versed in policy, Ms. Palin skipped some candidate forums; at others, she flipped through hand-written, color-coded index cards strategically placed behind her nameplate.

Before one forum, Mr. Halcro said he saw aides shovel reports at Ms. Palin as she crammed. Her showman’s instincts rarely failed. She put the pile of reports on the lectern. Asked what she would do about health care policy, she patted the stack and said she would find an answer in the pile of solutions.

“She was fresh, and she was tomorrow,” said Michael Carey, a former editorial page editor for The Anchorage Daily News. “She just floated along like Mary Poppins.”

Government

Half a century after Alaska became a state, Ms. Palin was inaugurated as governor in Fairbanks and took up the reformer’s sword.

As she assembled her cabinet and made other state appointments, those with insider credentials were now on the outs. But a new pattern became clear. She surrounded herself with people she has known since grade school and members of her church.

Mr. Parnell, the lieutenant governor, praised Ms. Palin’s appointments. “The people she hires are competent, qualified, top-notch people,” he said.

Ms. Palin chose Talis Colberg, a borough assemblyman from the Matanuska valley, as her attorney general, provoking a bewildered question from the legal community: “Who?” Mr. Colberg, who did not return calls, moved from a one-room building in the valley to one of the most powerful offices in the state, supervising some 500 people.

“I called him and asked, ‘Do you know how to supervise people?’ ” said a family friend, Kathy Wells. “He said, ‘No, but I think I’ll get some help.’ ”

The Wasilla High School yearbook archive now doubles as a veritable directory of state government. Ms. Palin appointed Mr. Bitney, her former junior high school band-mate, as her legislative director and chose another classmate, Joe Austerman, to manage the economic development office for $82,908 a year. Mr. Austerman had established an Alaska franchise for Mailboxes Etc.

To her supporters " and with an 80 percent approval rating, she has plenty " Ms. Palin has lifted Alaska out of a mire of corruption. She gained the passage of a bill that tightens the rules covering lobbyists. And she rewrote the tax code to capture a greater share of oil and gas sale proceeds.

“Does anybody doubt that she’s a tough negotiator?” said State Representative Carl Gatto, Republican of Palmer.

Yet recent controversy has marred Ms. Palin’s reform credentials. In addition to the trooper investigation, lawmakers in April accused her of improperly culling thousands of e-mail addresses from a state database for a mass mailing to rally support for a policy initiative.

While Ms. Palin took office promising a more open government, her administration has battled to keep information secret. Her inner circle discussed the benefit of using private e-mail addresses. An assistant told her it appeared that such e-mail messages sent to a private address on a “personal device” like a Blackberry “would be confidential and not subject to subpoena.”

The governor’s office did not respond to questions on the topic.

Ms. Palin and aides use their private e-mail addresses for state business. On Feb. 7, Frank Bailey, a high-level aide, wrote to Ms. Palin’s state e-mail address to discuss appointments. Another aide fired back: “Frank, this is not the governor’s personal account.”

Mr. Bailey responded: “Whoops~!”

Mr. Bailey, a former mid-level manager at Alaska Airlines who worked on Ms. Palin’s campaign, has been placed on paid leave; he has emerged as a central figure in the trooper investigation.

Another confidante of Ms. Palin’s is Ms. Frye, 27. She worked as a receptionist for State Senator Lyda Green before she joined Ms. Palin’s campaign for governor. Now Ms. Frye earns $68,664 as a special assistant to the governor. Her frequent interactions with Ms. Palin’s children have prompted some lawmakers to refer to her as “the babysitter,” a title that Ms. Frye disavows.

Like Mr. Bailey, she is an effusive cheerleader for her boss.

“YOU ARE SO AWESOME!” Ms. Frye typed in an e-mail message to Ms. Palin in March.

Many lawmakers contend that Ms. Palin is overly reliant on a small inner circle that leaves her isolated. Democrats and Republicans alike describe her as often missing in action. Since taking office in 2007, Ms. Palin has spent 312 nights at her Wasilla home, some 600 miles to the north of the governor’s mansion in Juneau, records show.

During the last legislative session, some lawmakers became so frustrated with her absences that they took to wearing “Where’s Sarah?” pins.

Many politicians say they typically learn of her initiatives " and vetoes " from news releases.

Mayors across the state, from the larger cities to tiny municipalities along the southeastern fiords, are even more frustrated. Often, their letters go unanswered and their pleas ignored, records and interviews show.

Last summer, Mayor Mark Begich of Anchorage, a Democrat, pressed Ms. Palin to meet with him because the state had failed to deliver money needed to operate city traffic lights. At one point, records show, state officials told him to just turn off a dozen of them. Ms. Palin agreed to meet with Mr. Begich when he threatened to go public with his anger, according to city officials.

At an Alaska Municipal League gathering in Juneau in January, mayors across the political spectrum swapped stories of the governor’s remoteness. How many of you, someone asked, have tried to meet with her? Every hand went up, recalled Mayor Fred Shields of Haines Borough. And how many met with her? Just a few hands rose. Ms. Palin soon walked in, delivered a few remarks and left for an anti-abortion rally.

The administration’s e-mail correspondence reveals a siege-like atmosphere. Top aides keep score, demean enemies and gloat over successes. Even some who helped engineer her rise have felt her wrath.

Dan Fagan, a prominent conservative radio host and longtime friend of Ms. Palin, urged his listeners to vote for her in 2006. But when he took her to task for raising taxes on oil companies, he said, he found himself branded a “hater.”

It is part of a pattern, Mr. Fagan said, in which Ms. Palin characterizes critics as “bad people who are anti-Alaska.”

As Ms. Palin’s star ascends, the McCain campaign, as often happens in national races, is controlling the words of those who know her well. Her mother-in-law, Faye Palin, has been asked not to speak to reporters, and aides sit in on interviews with old friends.

At a recent lunch gathering, an official with the Wasilla Chamber of Commerce asked its members to refer all calls from reporters to the governor’s office. Diane Woodruff, a city councilwoman, shook her head.

“I was thinking, I don’t remember giving up my First Amendment rights,” Ms. Woodruff said. “Just because you’re not going gaga over Sarah doesn’t mean you can’t speak your mind.”

0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Sat 13 Sep, 2008 10:25 pm
@firefly,
firefly, if you can find a document that is titled the "Bush Doctrine," let me know.

And I think you are wrong on one big point, pre-emption was not invented in 2002. Hitler never attacked us in World War II. The North Koreans did not attack us? Nor did the Vietnamese. We engaged in that conflict due to the domino theory, which in some respects was based upon pre-emption. I could cite lots of places. I think pre-emption has always been an option, perhaps more of an unwritten one, but it has not been a standard practice or defined as a Doctrine I don't think. Every situation is unique. And I think the element of terrorism has brought this on. Sure, WMD, but one of the biggest fears with for example, Iran, is not that they would directly attack us, but that they may give the WMD to terrorists. We know that they support terrorists. So if we take out thier nuclear facilities, or if Israel does, is that pre-emption? I think an argument can be made that it isn't. Hostilities by terror networks are already ongoing, and if a nation decides to use their surrogates, or terrorists, to do their work, then the war has already started.

I realize this is a matter of semantics, but you have already agreed the war in Afghanistan was not pre-emptive, but let us admit that the nation of Afghanistan did not directly attack us as a nation. I don't see a world of difference between that situation and the situation we are facing with Iran, or the situation in Iraq. Yes, there is disagreement as to the legitimacy of the reasons, using 20 / 20 hindsight, but at the time, the reasons given were WMD, the fear of passing those to terror networks, and all the other reasons given at the time. There was no single reason, but several, and if we had found WMD, an active stockpile, would the war have been pre-emptive?

Personally, I don't think pre-emption has ever been off the table, and I don't think it has ever been a standard policy, even now, but it is stated as an option, simply because of the stark realities of the world we presently have.

So, I have admitted you are apparently correct for the most part, but I still am not ready to agree that anybody has a perfect version of what the "Bush Doctrine" is. It is open to individual intrepretation, depending upon which issue or angle the president has used in any one of several speeches. And I also think we should not commonly use the term, pre-emptive, to describe how we may respond to terrorists. When we do that, we are really mis-characterizing what is going on and we lose the moral high ground, which we do have and should not voluntarily give it up. Terrorist organizations have declared war already, have carried out acts of war, and those nations that support them have already effectively created hostilities already. That is my thinking on it, and that is the general description I got from Bush on September 21, 2001.
okie
 
  0  
Sat 13 Sep, 2008 10:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Mushie in Pakistan was in bed with the Taliban and AQ. He protected them. There was no serious effort to root them out under his leadership. It's almost certain that Bhutto was assassinated b/c she opposed his policy of protecting them. Now that Mushie is gone, we are actually sending troops in to take care of business. It appears that you have no knowledge of the political situation in Pakistan whatsoever when you make claims like the ones you have in this thread, Okie.

Cycloptichorn

Evidence for the above, cyclops?

Maybe I am off the mark, but I have thought Musharaff was not in bed with the Taliban after 911, that he would like to cooperate more with us than he could, but he had internal opposition, so he played both sides of the game. And isn't it part of the reason he is now gone, due to the fact that he cooperated as much as he did? He tried to appease the more militant elements in his own goverment, in an effort to stay in power, but that effort ultimately failed. He feared for his own life because of how others viewed him as an American stooge, because of the cooperation to whatever extent he was able to give us.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Sun 14 Sep, 2008 12:16 am
@okie,
okie, you are confusing apples and oranges.

The Korean and Vietnam wars were basically civil wars between the North and South portions of each of those countries. We became involved with both of those conflicts, but we didn't start the wars, nor did we invade either country. We were assisting a particular side in both of those conflicts. These were not pre-emptive actions.

We weren't going after Hitler either. After the bombing of Pearl Harbor, we declared war on Japan. Germany, as a member of the Tripartite Pact with Japan, responded by declaring war on the United States on Dec. 11, 1941. Our response, following that, was not pre-emptive, it was self defense.

Bush did not originate the idea of pre-emptive war, as a form of "preventive war", but his doctrine did constitute a radical departure from previous long-standing U.S. policy which had been to respond, with military force, only after attacks, or only after our national security had been clearly threatened. Furthermore, Bush declared that the U.S. would act unilaterally, if need be, in making a pre-emptive military attack. This then led to our invasion of Iraq.

Palin can be forgiven for being unclear about what Gibson was initially referring to when he first asked her about the Bush Doctrine. However, Gibson then clarified what he meant, and specifically said he was referring to Bush's position regarding pre-emptive strikes. That Palin should have known--it was the basis for the Iraq war, and it continues to be part of our National Security Strategy. But she really did not seem to understand what it was. She said something about terrorists (it really has nothing to do with terrorists), then mentioned imminent threats to the U.S. (Bush's policy clearly states the threat does not have to be imminent). Then she tried to link energy to national security. Rolling Eyes She was just clueless about the thinking and the strategy that dragged us into Iraq. That shows her as not only woefully uniniformed, but shockingly disinterested in what our foreign and military policy has been under Bush. She's not an average Alaska housewife, she's the governor of the state, and she's running for vice president of the United States---she should know these things without having to be coached about them. One would think she would have an interest in such things, particularly since her own son is about to go to Iraq, but she was pretty clueless.

It was a good, and perfectly legitimate, question for Gibson to have asked her. There are serious moral/ethical questions about the U.S. engaging in such an aggressive pre-emptive military policy, which also affects our moral authority and stature on the world stage. It also raises the issue of whether a McCain/Palin administration would continue such practices. Gibson gave her a chance to express her views on these matters and an opportunity to show that she understands something about why we invaded Iraq, or something about our foreign policy--but she was clueless. Anyone running for VP should be able to respond to such questions. I could have have answered Gibson, and I'm not running for VP.

And it wasn't just one question Palin couldn't answer, it was most of them. She doesn't seem to understand our economic problems or even what an entitlement program is or how it differs from a government agency. Again, she's not just an ordinary Alaska housewife, she's running for VP of the United States. She should have awareness and knowledge of the issues, beyond just being able to spout slogans or political catch-words, or sarcastic jibes at her opponents. Her ignorance is abysmal. And, in a VP candidate, that's frightening. We are talking about the future of our country.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Sun 14 Sep, 2008 09:10 am
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

firefly wrote:
When Gibson asked her if she felt ready to be the president, if necessary, she promptly answered, "Yes" but could not say what qualified her or why she had no hesitation about accepting the nomination, except to say that she was up to "the mission". "The mission"? What "mission"?


Thank you, firefly, for your post.

I wonder about "the mission" too--perhaps she believes she's on a mission from God.



I have the strong impression that Debra Law is similarly motivated.
firefly
 
  1  
Sun 14 Sep, 2008 03:09 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The New York Times
September 14, 2008

Once Elected, Palin Hired Friends and Lashed Foes

This article is by Jo Becker, Peter S. Goodman and Michael Powell.


WASILLA, Alaska " Gov. Sarah Palin lives by the maxim that all politics is local, not to mention personal.

So when there was a vacancy at the top of the State Division of Agriculture, she appointed a high school classmate, Franci Havemeister, to the $95,000-a-year directorship. A former real estate agent, Ms. Havemeister cited her childhood love of cows as a qualification for running the roughly $2 million agency.

Ms. Havemeister was one of at least five schoolmates Ms. Palin hired, often at salaries far exceeding their private sector wages.

When Ms. Palin had to cut her first state budget, she avoided the legion of frustrated legislators and mayors. Instead, she huddled with her budget director and her husband, Todd, an oil field worker who is not a state employee, and vetoed millions of dollars of legislative projects.

And four months ago, a Wasilla blogger, Sherry Whitstine, who chronicles the governor’s career with an astringent eye, answered her phone to hear an assistant to the governor on the line, she said.

“You should be ashamed!” Ivy Frye, the assistant, told her. “Stop blogging. Stop blogging right now!”

Ms. Palin walks the national stage as a small-town foe of “good old boy” politics and a champion of ethics reform. The charismatic 44-year-old governor draws enthusiastic audiences and high approval ratings. And as the Republican vice-presidential nominee, she points to her management experience while deriding her Democratic rivals, Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as speechmakers who never have run anything.

But an examination of her swift rise and record as mayor of Wasilla and then governor finds that her visceral style and penchant for attacking critics " she sometimes calls local opponents “haters” " contrasts with her carefully crafted public image.

Throughout her political career, she has pursued vendettas, fired officials who crossed her and sometimes blurred the line between government and personal grievance, according to a review of public records and interviews with 60 Republican and Democratic legislators and local officials.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interviews show that Ms. Palin runs an administration that puts a premium on loyalty and secrecy. The governor and her top officials sometimes use personal e-mail accounts for state business; dozens of e-mail messages obtained by The New York Times show that her staff members studied whether that could allow them to circumvent subpoenas seeking public records.

Rick Steiner, a University of Alaska professor, sought the e-mail messages of state scientists who had examined the effect of global warming on polar bears. (Ms. Palin said the scientists had found no ill effects, and she has sued the federal government to block the listing of the bears as endangered.) An administration official told Mr. Steiner that his request would cost $468,784 to process.

When Mr. Steiner finally obtained the e-mail messages " through a federal records request " he discovered that state scientists had in fact agreed that the bears were in danger, records show.

“Their secrecy is off the charts,” Mr. Steiner said.

State legislators are investigating accusations that Ms. Palin and her husband pressured officials to fire a state trooper who had gone through a messy divorce with her sister, charges that she denies. But interviews make clear that the Palins draw few distinctions between the personal and the political.

Last summer State Representative John Harris, the Republican speaker of the House, picked up his phone and heard Mr. Palin’s voice. The governor’s husband sounded edgy. He said he was unhappy that Mr. Harris had hired John Bitney as his chief of staff, the speaker recalled. Mr. Bitney was a high school classmate of the Palins and had worked for Ms. Palin. But she fired Mr. Bitney after learning that he had fallen in love with another longtime friend.

“I understood from the call that Todd wasn’t happy with me hiring John and he’d like to see him not there,” Mr. Harris said.

“The Palin family gets upset at personal issues,” he added. “And at our level, they want to strike back.”

Through a campaign spokesman, Mr. Palin said he “did not recall” referring to Mr. Bitney in the conversation

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ms. Palin ordered city employees not to talk to the press. And she used city money to buy a white Suburban for the mayor’s use " employees sarcastically called it the mayor-mobile.

The new mayor also tended carefully to her evangelical base. She appointed a pastor to the town planning board. And she began to eye the library. For years, social conservatives had pressed the library director to remove books they considered immoral.

“People would bring books back censored,” recalled former Mayor John Stein, Ms. Palin’s predecessor. “Pages would get marked up or torn out.”

Witnesses and contemporary news accounts say Ms. Palin asked the librarian about removing books from the shelves. The McCain-Palin presidential campaign says Ms. Palin never advocated censorship.

But in 1995, Ms. Palin, then a city councilwoman, told colleagues that she had noticed the book “Daddy’s Roommate” on the shelves and that it did not belong there, according to Ms. Chase and Mr. Stein. Ms. Chase read the book, which helps children understand homosexuality, and said it was inoffensive; she suggested that Ms. Palin read it.

“Sarah said she didn’t need to read that stuff,” Ms. Chase said. “It was disturbing that someone would be willing to remove a book from the library and she didn’t even read it.”

“I’m still proud of Sarah,” she added, “but she scares the bejeebers out of me.”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While Ms. Palin took office promising a more open government, her administration has battled to keep information secret. Her inner circle discussed the benefit of using private e-mail addresses. An assistant told her it appeared that such e-mail messages sent to a private address on a “personal device” like a BlackBerry “would be confidential and not subject to subpoena.”

Ms. Palin and aides use their private e-mail addresses for state business. A campaign spokesman said the governor copied e-mail messages to her state account “when there was significant state business.”

On Feb. 7, Frank Bailey, a high-level aide, wrote to Ms. Palin’s state e-mail address to discuss appointments. Another aide fired back: “Frank, this is not the governor’s personal account.”

Mr. Bailey responded: “Whoops~!”

Mr. Bailey, a former midlevel manager at Alaska Airlines who worked on Ms. Palin’s campaign, has been placed on paid leave; he has emerged as a central figure in the trooper investigation.

Another confidante of Ms. Palin’s is Ms. Frye, 27. She worked as a receptionist for State Senator Lyda Green before she joined Ms. Palin’s campaign for governor. Now Ms. Frye earns $68,664 as a special assistant to the governor. Her frequent interactions with Ms. Palin’s children have prompted some lawmakers to refer to her as “the babysitter,” a title that Ms. Frye disavows.

Like Mr. Bailey, she is an effusive cheerleader for her boss.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Democrats and Republicans alike describe her as often missing in action. Since taking office in 2007, Ms. Palin has spent 312 nights at her Wasilla home, some 600 miles to the north of the governor’s mansion in Juneau, records show.

During the last legislative session, some lawmakers became so frustrated with her absences that they took to wearing “Where’s Sarah?” pins.

Many politicians say they typically learn of her initiatives " and vetoes " from news releases.

Mayors across the state, from the larger cities to tiny municipalities along the southeastern fiords, are even more frustrated. Often, their letters go unanswered and their pleas ignored, records and interviews show.

Last summer, Mayor Mark Begich of Anchorage, a Democrat, pressed Ms. Palin to meet with him because the state had failed to deliver money needed to operate city traffic lights. At one point, records show, state officials told him to just turn off a dozen of them. Ms. Palin agreed to meet with Mr. Begich when he threatened to go public with his anger, according to city officials.

At an Alaska Municipal League gathering in Juneau in January, mayors across the political spectrum swapped stories of the governor’s remoteness. How many of you, someone asked, have tried to meet with her? Every hand went up, recalled Mayor Fred Shields of Haines Borough. And how many met with her? Just a few hands rose. Ms. Palin soon walked in, delivered a few remarks and left for an anti-abortion rally.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/us/politics/14palin.html?hp




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meet the real Sarah Palin
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Sun 14 Sep, 2008 03:32 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Debra Law wrote:

firefly wrote:
When Gibson asked her if she felt ready to be the president, if necessary, she promptly answered, "Yes" but could not say what qualified her or why she had no hesitation about accepting the nomination, except to say that she was up to "the mission". "The mission"? What "mission"?


Thank you, firefly, for your post.

I wonder about "the mission" too--perhaps she believes she's on a mission from God.



I have the strong impression that Debra Law is similarly motivated.


Holy crap! There's a major deja vu. I swear this same conversation took place about Bush ... Like almost word for word all the way down to questioning someones motives.

Then you read the next post about the real Palin and how she handled her duties like a dictator and you start to go... Whoa!


0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Sun 14 Sep, 2008 09:12 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Bush did not originate the idea of pre-emptive war, as a form of "preventive war", but his doctrine did constitute a radical departure from previous long-standing U.S. policy which had been to respond, with military force, only after attacks, or only after our national security had been clearly threatened. Furthermore, Bush declared that the U.S. would act unilaterally, if need be, in making a pre-emptive military attack. This then led to our invasion of Iraq.


I agree that Bush did not invent pre-emptive war, but I still disagree that a pattern of pre-emption is our policy, and I am not at all convinced that pre-emption is the core value of the so called Bush Doctrine. Pre-emption may be advertised as an option, simply for the sake of our enemies to be aware of it, but a standard practice or policy, I don't think it is.

I follow this stuff all the time, and if Gibson had asked me the question, my answer would have been different, it would have been the proclamation by Bush that any nation that harbors or supports terrorists have the same as attacked us already, and therefore we have the right to respond to them in our self defense. I think that is what the Bush Doctrine is, as it was first mentioned following his speech 10 days after 911. And I also think that Iraq fits that reason as well, although you will disagree with that, but if the reasons given at the time we entered Iraq are valid, then it fits. 20/20 hindsight doesn't count. We made the decision to enter Iraq based upon what we thought we knew then, not what people think they know now. I remember being more conflicted about Iraq before we went in - than I was Afghanistan, but after I weighed the pros and cons, I came down on the side of the president, and like Bush, I have chosen not to waver, which cannot be said for many of his detractors.

And I disagree with you about Palin's answer about terrorists. I think if Hussein had WMD, one of our primary concerns was it ending up in the hands of terrorists. That was based upon what lots of people thought and knew then, which is the only time frame that is valid in regard to the motivation for war, because that is what we based the decision on, not what we know now, or what we think we know now. I follow this stuff, and I realize an elaborate case has been built against the decisions made by George W. Bush, but I am not one to buy into all of that, and I believe that history will judge Bush alot more kindly than his current liberal and Democrat detractors.
firefly
 
  1  
Mon 15 Sep, 2008 05:30 am
@okie,
okie, in your attempts to defend Bush you are starting to sound ridiculous, because you are denying United States National Security Strategy as posted on the White House web site. I could not have provided you with a more reliable source of information about what Bush believes, and what he, in fact, acted on. Yet you continue to say:

Quote:
Pre-emption may be advertised as an option, simply for the sake of our enemies to be aware of it, but a standard practice or policy, I don't think it is.


We unilaterally invaded Iraq--a country that neither attacked nor directly threatened us--in a pre-emptive strike. Iraq was not one of the countries that was harboring, cooperating with, or facilitating the training of al Qaeda--and Bush never really claimed it was. We invaded Iraq, overthrew the government, and occupied the country--a country that had not attacked or directly threatened us, and which posed no imminent threat to us, based solely on the possibility they had WMD, and that some day, some how, those WMD might wind up in the hands of our enemies.

The National Security Strategy included pre-emption as U.S. policy in 2002, 2006, and it continues to include it today. Bush has not changed his position. It is not "advertised as an option"--it is the policy Bush already acted on to justify the invasion of Iraq--he already used a pre-emptive strike. The policy specifically refers to WMD, not to terrorists--it is WMD that pose the threat that justifies the pre-emptive attacks.

If Bush had suggested that we invade every country that harbors terrorists he would have been rightfully impeached for incompetence. We cannot, by any stretch, nor with any moral authority, invade every country that harbors terrorists--they are all over the world. They were, obviously, even in our own country on 9/11/01, and may well still be here. But we can try to prevent WMD from falling into their hands.

The problem is, okie, you are so busy trying to defend Bush, you can't look objectively at his stated policies, or the rationale for pre-emptive strikes (which is what he used to justify the invasion of Iraq) posted on the White House web site. I have not been attacking Bush in my discussion with you. I have only been trying to provide you with the facts and the position statement--directly from the White House.

Palin clearly was not able to discuss any aspect of national security policy--other than vaguely going after terrorists.

I haven't heard anyone claim that Palin sounded knowledable in any of her answers, to any of Gibson's questions. Nor did she sound thoughtful, or display any intellectual depth. She just didn't make any major gaffs. But, as I said before, she is not just an Alaska housewife. She is the governor of a state and she is running for VP of the United States. She did not demonstrate that she is fit for the job--if anything, she demonstrated just how unqualified and out of her depth she is.

I don't wonder you support Palin--neither of you seem to want to be bothered with the facts.
wandeljw
 
  2  
Mon 15 Sep, 2008 08:18 am
@firefly,
The unilateral nature of the pre-emptive action in Iraq is the most striking aspect of the Bush policy. The Bush Administration showed contempt for the United Nations and other forms of international cooperation. The objections of American allies were disregarded.
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  3  
Mon 15 Sep, 2008 09:12 am
@H2O MAN,
she is neither the first VP or the first woman nominated for VP at this time.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Mon 15 Sep, 2008 09:41 am
@Bi-Polar Bear,
I didn't imply she was the 1st female VP nominee, but I do imply that she will be our very 1st female VP Cool
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  3  
Mon 15 Sep, 2008 10:13 am
@H2O MAN,
then all you decent Christian repubs will be praying for an early death for McCain no doubt.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » McCain's VP:
  3. » Page 61
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.1 seconds on 02/01/2025 at 06:39:11