McCain's VP:

The US has been carrying out regular military air strikes on Pakistan from Afghanistan, but ten days ago US troops carried out a ground assault for the first time.

Pakistan said the raid in South Waziristan was a violation of its sovereignty and summoned the US ambassador to hear a "very strong protest".

okie wrote:

Now, as I understand it, we have already crossed the border slightly on occasion, but only quick and sporadic, very targeted,

You are making distinctions without difference, Okie -- little short of dissembling. What does crossing the border "slightly" even mean? You cross it or you dont. And yes, the times the US crossed the border were "very targeted"; which is exactly what Obama was proposing as well - targeted attacks against high-value terrorists whom Pakistan itself refused to tackle.

And yes, the US is doing already exactly what Obama proposed, right now. Bush had the troops do it this last week, even. The very same thing.

You are making distinctions without difference, Okie -- little short of dissembling. What does crossing the border "slightly" even mean? You cross it or you dont. And yes, the times the US crossed the border were "very targeted"; which is exactly what Obama was proposing as well - targeted attacks against high-value terrorists whom Pakistan itself refused to tackle.

And yes, the US is doing already exactly what Obama proposed, right now. Bush had the troops do it this last week, even. The very same thing.

Okay, maybe it is splitting hairs, but I see a big difference between what we are doing and what Obama implied. Highly targeted attacks, sporadic, just across the border is in my opinion different than a wholesale and prolonged attack inside Pakistan, which is how I took Obama's comments to imply.

As it is now, we are walking a very fine line with what we do with Pakistan, and the statements by Obama were not very brainy. And it is totally inconsistent with his past statements and philosophy, which is talk. At the time he said it, he was trying to prove the persona of being tough, and it was phony anyway, I don't believe for a minute he meant what he said.

In the context that Obama offered his comments, it sounded to me like it was much more than a sporadic and highly targeted attack, it sounded like freely fighting the Taliban or Al Qaeda inside Pakistan.

Above all, I will send a clear message: we will not repeat the mistake of the past, when we turned our back on Afghanistan following Soviet withdrawal. As 9/11 showed us, the security of Afghanistan and America is shared. And today, that security is most threatened by the al Qaeda and Taliban sanctuary in the tribal regions of northwest Pakistan.

Al Qaeda terrorists train, travel, and maintain global communications in this safe-haven. The Taliban pursues a hit and run strategy, striking in Afghanistan, then skulking across the border to safety.

This is the wild frontier of our globalized world. There are wind-swept deserts and cave-dotted mountains. There are tribes that see borders as nothing more than lines on a map, and governments as forces that come and go. There are blood ties deeper than alliances of convenience, and pockets of extremism that follow religion to violence. It's a tough place.

But that is no excuse. There must be no safe-haven for terrorists who threaten America. We cannot fail to act because action is hard.

As President, I would make the hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. military aid to Pakistan conditional, and I would make our conditions clear: Pakistan must make substantial progress in closing down the training camps, evicting foreign fighters, and preventing the Taliban from using Pakistan as a staging area for attacks in Afghanistan.

I understand that President Musharraf has his own challenges. But let me make this clear. There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al Qaeda leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will.

And Pakistan needs more than F-16s to combat extremism. As the Pakistani government increases investment in secular education to counter radical madrasas, my Administration will increase America's commitment. We must help Pakistan invest in the provinces along the Afghan border, so that the extremists' program of hate is met with one of hope. And we must not turn a blind eye to elections that are neither free nor fair -- our goal is not simply an ally in Pakistan, it is a democratic ally.

Okay, fine, but this line:
"If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will." I think to me that was part of the rub, it is my understanding that Musharraf was doing his best, now he has even been booted, so we will need to work with who is in power, but it did no good in my opinion to insult Musharraf. Obama is all about talking, and in this particular instance of the speech you quote, he was trying to give the tough guy image.

We have tried to work with whatever cooperation Pakistan has provided, and it seems we are increasingly becoming a bit more bold in attacking places just across the border. But remember, it was the Democrats that have complained so bitterly about innocent civilians being killed as they sit in their mud hut villages. You can't win with Democrats, if we attack a village where intelligence said the terrorists are holed up, it is killing innocents, if we don't, they complain we did nothing. The whole point of it is Obama is an empty suit, he knows nothing in regard to what he spoke of in regard to the details of Pakistan and our military operations, why we do some things and why we don't. He was shooting off his mouth when he had no business doing it and when he knew very little about what he was talking about, the details of our relations with Musharraf, our intelligence, and our military operations.

it is my understanding that Musharraf was doing his best

Okie, this is just ridiculous. Horribly ridiculous. You have no clue what you are talking about. You have come to pre-conceived notions about Obama long ago and now twist every single situation to meet those notions, no matter how clear he is in what he says.
Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Okie, this is just ridiculous. Horribly ridiculous. You have no clue what you are talking about. You have come to pre-conceived notions about Obama long ago and now twist every single situation to meet those notions, no matter how clear he is in what he says.
Cycloptichorn

You are right on one thing, I have notions about Obama, but not from long ago, they have evolved through time as I have learned more about him, and still evolving as we speak. I hear what he says through the prism of what I perceive his mindset to be, and so he doesn't fool me as he apparently does you.

Really? Where did you get that understanding from? What research have you done on the region? What do you know about the politics or political alliances between Musharraf and the Taliban? Nothing. You make declarations from a position of ignorance.

I hear what he says through the prism of what I perceive his mindset to be....

Palin Flip-Flops on Whether Global Warming Has Man-Made Causes; Falsely Claims She Never Suggested Otherwise

September 12, 2008 9:35 AM

"Let me talk to you a bit about environmental policy because this interfaces with energy policy and you have some significant differences with John McCain," ABC News' Charles Gibson said in his conversation with Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin. "Do you still believe that global warming is not man-made?"

"I believe that man's activities certainly can be contributing to the issue of global warming, climate change," Palin said. "Here in Alaska, the only arctic state in our union of course, we see the effects of climate change more so than any other area with ice pack melting. Regardless though of the reason for climate change -- whether it's entirely wholly caused by man's activities or is part of the cyclical nature of our planet, the warming and the cooling trends -- regardless of that, John McCain and I agree that we got to do something about it and we have to make sure that we're doing all we can to cut back on pollution."

Said Gibson: "But it's a critical point as to whether this is man made. He says it is. You have said in the past it's not."

"The debate on that even really has evolved into, 'Okay, here's where we are now,'" Palin said. "'Scientists do show us that there are changes in climate. Things are getting warmer. Now what do we do about it?' John McCain and I are going to be working on what we do."

"Yes, but isn't it critical as to whether or not it's man-made?" Gibson said. "Because what you do about it depends on whether it's man-made."

"That's why I'm attributing some of man's activities to potentially causing some of the changes in the climate right now," said Palin.

"But I -- color me a cynic," Gibson said, "but I hear a little bit of change in your policy there when you say 'Yes,' now you’re beginning to say it is man-made. Sounds to me like you're adapting your position to Senator McCain's."

"I think you are a cynic," Palin said, "because show me where I've said there's absolute proof that nothing that man has ever conducted or engaged in has had any effect or no effect on climate change. I have not said that. I have said that my belief is there is a cyclical nature of our planet " warming trends, cooling trends " I'm not going to argue scientists because I believe in science and have such a great respect for what they are telling us. I'm not going to disagree with the point that they make that man's activities can be attributed to changes."

**

Show me?

Ok, Gov. Palin:

Fairbanks Daily News-Miner, December 4, 2007: "I'm not an Al Gore, doom-and-gloom environmentalist blaming the changes in our climate on human activity, but I'm not going to put my head in the sand and pretend there aren't changes."

Interview with Newsmax, August 28, 2008: "A changing environment will affect Alaska more than any other state, because of our location. I'm not one though who would attribute it to being man-made."

-- Jake Tapper and Lisa Chinn

okie wrote:

I hear what he says through the prism of what I perceive his mindset to be....

In other words, you pre-judge anything you hear about him.

Isn't that what Cyclo accused you of in the first place?

You make declarations from a position of ignorance.