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Is it time to retire the Pledge of Allegiance?

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:44 am
(edgarblythe looks for razzberry emoticon to post to Finn)

It ain't signing a loyalty oath that makes one a good American. It's working to make the country be all it can be.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 04:34 pm
LETS ALL SAY IT TOGETHER

I pledge a lesion to theflag

A the United STates ofAmerica

And to the repulic of Richard Stands

One nation, unna goda (davida)

in a dirigible

With leerty and cheezwiz forall

Thats how I remember it ferom 2nd grade
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 04:41 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
I could say the pledge with a straight face, if it was not expected of me that I would say, "one nation, under God." This is asking an atheist to surrender a fundamental right, merely to assuage the fundamentalist bent of a segment of the population. It is the equivelent of me telling them to say the pledge, promising, "one nation, with no God."


I have the same problem with it. In high school I stopped saying the pledge because I thought it was brain wash and I felt uncomfortable with the god part. I was always respectful (in my memory) for others saying the pledge and observing the moment of silence.

My homeroom was in the music room with three other homerooms. A teacher who was not my teacher and never had been or would be blew his top finally after a while and sent me to the principal's office. There I spoke with the VP and told him how I felt. He said I didn't have to say it.

Now, as a teacher in an elementary school I try to avoid being where I have to say the thing. But, if I am caught in the gym during the morning, I will say all but "under god". Funny enough to me, I now get all POd at kids who talk over the pledge. But, that is more of an individual mater involving a few students who have a problem of disrespecting the adults at the school.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 04:46 pm
make em say this, (excepr substitute the Richard STands
in there)

Juro fidelidad a la bandera
de los Estados Unidos de América,
y a la república que representa(na Ricardo Stands)
una nación bajo Dios,
indivisible cón libertad
y justicía para todós.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 05:21 pm
What did you make of "O Come All Ye Faithful" fm?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 05:31 pm
littlek-

Have you not tried not saying "under God" with your trouser leg rolled up and pirouhetting with a flashing light on your head.

Your 15 minutes is right there.

Next.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 06:54 pm
farmerman wrote:
make em say this, (excepr substitute the Richard STands
in there)

Juro fidelidad a la bandera
de los Estados Unidos de América,
y a la república que representa(na Ricardo Stands)
una nación bajo Dios,
indivisible cón libertad
y justicía para todós.


I see that 'bajo dios' in there you sneaky farmer.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 07:16 pm
:wink:
Hope you had some good news today
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 07:32 pm
I've tried to write the pledge the way Tonto might have said it to the Lone Ranger, but it just isn't coming out right.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:15 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
(edgarblythe looks for razzberry emoticon to post to Finn)

It ain't signing a loyalty oath that makes one a good American. It's working to make the country be all it can be.


Of course not, and it isn't reciting a pledge of allegiance that makes one an oppressed victim of mind control, nor an ignoble hypocrite.

Keep looking for the razzberry emoticon. Here's one which expresses how laughable your charge is that the pledge is an attemtp to shove God down anyone's throat. Laughing

Most people don't even think about the words they are reciting - especially so with kids. In this regard its not a true oath taking but a small and harmless ritual that emphasizes a sense of patriotism.

If you don't like the use of "God," skip that part when it comes up. My bet is that if you do, you will be more concious of the words of the pledge than you ever have been while reciting it in the past.

Or do you have a fundamental problem with pledging your allegiance to America, the nation?

But it is heartening to see how many folks of principle there are that are willing to risk all by refusing to recite the pledge of allegiance. I'm sure we can rely on y'all to be the first at the barricades when The Revolution comes. Laughing
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:24 pm
Most people don't even think about the words they are reciting - especially so with kids. In this regard its not a true oath taking but a small and harmless ritual that emphasizes a sense of patriotism.

This is one thing that makes it insidious - The unthinking part. The kind of patriotism it helps instil is the unthinking kind.

Many persons with my stance have fought in wars, if that is your measure of standing up for the nation. I volunteered for service, and actually served on a ship that was prepared to do battle, unlike so many of the Republican patriotic leaders. As I said before, it's trying to make America to be all it can be that marks a good citizen, not jingoism and unthinking fealty to coercive rituals.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:30 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
Most people don't even think about the words they are reciting - especially so with kids. In this regard its not a true oath taking but a small and harmless ritual that emphasizes a sense of patriotism.

This is one thing that makes it insidious - The unthinking part. The kind of patriotism it helps instil is the unthinking kind.

Many persons with my stance have fought in wars, if that is your measure of standing up for the nation. I volunteered for service, and actually served on a ship that was prepared to do battle, unlike so many of the Republican patriotic leaders. As I said before, it's trying to make America to be all it can be that marks a good citizen, not jingoism and unthinking fealty to coercive rituals.


Good grief is the Pledge of Allegiance really worth all of your righteous indignation?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:34 pm
farmerman wrote:
LETS ALL SAY IT TOGETHER

I pledge a lesion to theflag

A the United STates ofAmerica

And to the repulic of Richard Stands

One nation, unna goda (davida)

in a dirigible

With leerty and cheezwiz forall

Thats how I remember it ferom 2nd grade

Someone should do a thread on mondegreens.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:49 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
Most people don't even think about the words they are reciting - especially so with kids. In this regard its not a true oath taking but a small and harmless ritual that emphasizes a sense of patriotism.

This is one thing that makes it insidious - The unthinking part. The kind of patriotism it helps instil is the unthinking kind.

Many persons with my stance have fought in wars, if that is your measure of standing up for the nation. I volunteered for service, and actually served on a ship that was prepared to do battle, unlike so many of the Republican patriotic leaders. As I said before, it's trying to make America to be all it can be that marks a good citizen, not jingoism and unthinking fealty to coercive rituals.


Good grief is the Pledge of Allegiance really worth all of your righteous indignation?


Seems plenty of indignation is coming from your side, too.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:49 pm
Never liked the Pledge of Allegiance, with or without "under God". My problem with it is that it makes a country and its form of government the object of a quasi-religious affirmation. This gets the proper relation between a nation and its citizens backwards. Granted, it's not quite as bad as East Germany, which went as far as establishing a secular ritual called Jugendweihe, which was modeled after the Christian confirmation Bar Mizwah, and which teenagers were expected to go through. But the America's national quasi-religion embodied in the pledge is still too close for my comfort.

[size=7]Damn! Another political thread I couldn't resist posting to![/size]
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:51 pm
Welcome, Thomas.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:53 pm
Thomas just posted in "Politics".
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 10:14 pm
Thomas wrote:
Never liked the Pledge of Allegiance, with or without "under God". My problem with it is that it makes a country and its form of government the object of a quasi-religious affirmation. This gets the proper relation between a nation and its citizens backwards. Granted, it's not quite as bad as East Germany, which went as far as establishing a secular ritual called Jugendweihe, which was modeled after the Christian confirmation Bar Mizwah, and which teenagers were expected to go through. But the America's national quasi-religion embodied in the pledge is still too close for my comfort.

[size=7]Damn! Another political thread I couldn't resist posting to![/size]


Quasi-religious?

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

As a furener, you may be excused your lack of appreciation for the daily reality associated with the Pledge.

I assure you that the overwhelming majority of its reciters do not achieve a state of rapture, go glassy eyed, or feel the spirit of America move within them.

Read the words. Even by Obama's definition of patriotism, the pledge is not objectionable. Those of us who recite it (with mindfulness) are not swearing an oath to any government or administration. We are pledging our allegiance to a nation that embodies the concepts of a republic based on the principle of liberty and justice for all.

I would be happy to debate the person who cannot support such an allegiance.

Now consider the reality of The Pledge.

School children and members of the Knights of Columbus do not go slack-jawed during their recitals, nor do they gyrate uncontrollably or kiss snakes. They do not get angry or even impassioned. They may recognize that for the moment they are engaged in a ritual, and, it is hoped, that they perceive that ritual, in some small way, as an enforcement of their patriotism.

If you listen to these anti-Pledge zealots you will totally misunderstand the reality of the role it plays in our society.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 04:45 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Never liked the Pledge of Allegiance, with or without "under God". My problem with it is that it makes a country and its form of government the object of a quasi-religious affirmation. This gets the proper relation between a nation and its citizens backwards. Granted, it's not quite as bad as East Germany, which went as far as establishing a secular ritual called Jugendweihe, which was modeled after the Christian confirmation Bar Mizwah, and which teenagers were expected to go through. But the America's national quasi-religion embodied in the pledge is still too close for my comfort.

[size=7]Damn! Another political thread I couldn't resist posting to![/size]


Quasi-religious?

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

As a furener, you may be excused your lack of appreciation for the daily reality associated with the Pledge.

I assure you that the overwhelming majority of its reciters do not achieve a state of rapture, go glassy eyed, or feel the spirit of America move within them.

Read the words. Even by Obama's definition of patriotism, the pledge is not objectionable. Those of us who recite it (with mindfulness) are not swearing an oath to any government or administration. We are pledging our allegiance to a nation that embodies the concepts of a republic based on the principle of liberty and justice for all.

I would be happy to debate the person who cannot support such an allegiance.

Now consider the reality of The Pledge.

School children and members of the Knights of Columbus do not go slack-jawed during their recitals, nor do they gyrate uncontrollably or kiss snakes. They do not get angry or even impassioned. They may recognize that for the moment they are engaged in a ritual, and, it is hoped, that they perceive that ritual, in some small way, as an enforcement of their patriotism.

If you listen to these anti-Pledge zealots you will totally misunderstand the reality of the role it plays in our society.


It's a matter of simple integrity, versus a more subtle form of coercion than what you described. "Enforcement of patriotism" - Unthinking, by rote, uncritical.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 05:29 am
I HAD NO IDEA WHAT A MONDEGREEN WAS , so I looked it up (Im so proud that my ADD didnt kick in)
Quote:
The American writer Sylvia Wright coined the term mondegreen in an essay "The Death of Lady Mondegreen," which was published in Harper's Magazine in November 1954.[1] In the essay, Wright described how, as a young girl, she misheard the final line from the 17th century ballad "The Bonnie Earl O' Murray." She wrote:

When I was a child, my mother used to read aloud to me from Percy's Reliques, and one of my favorite poems began, as I remember:
Ye Highlands and ye Lowlands,
Oh, where hae ye been?
They hae slain the Earl Amurray, [sic]
And Lady Mondegreen.
The actual fourth line is "And laid him on the green


I recall many such miheard lyrics in R&R songs.
0 Replies
 
 

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