2
   

Fear of a Black President

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:41 am
georgeob1 wrote:
I think it is unlikely that Obama or any other Black candidate could escape the label of a potential first Black President, no matter how he (or she) conducted himself. This is simply the inevitable result of the facts of our history, including, slavery, Jim Crow, and the fact that there has not yet been a Balack President. Applying a standard that such a candidate must somehow escape such a label in these circumstances seems unrealistic.

I don't support Obama, but I do acknowledge that he has indeed made a notable effort to identify himself with a broad constituency of which black people are only a part. In that sense I believe he has met the test that Foxfyre suggested.


I actually like Obama very much. I like some of the initiatives he has suggested though not enough to make him my candidate of choice.

But he demonstrates an inexperience and naivete and even incompetence in some areas that I think may not serve him well if he chooses to surround himself with people who share his view of the world at this time. And so far, some of the people he has surrounded himself with over his career do raise questions that we are being discouraged from examining, such relationships that may or may not give clues to his true agenda.

The 'fear' is not that Obama is black. I think much of the 'fear' is that the odds are in favor of Obama being our next president, and we are not able to fully explore who he is because he is 'black'. And that is unfortunate. Unless we are allowed to do that and lay such issues to rest before the inaugeration, that fact could--the operative word here is 'could'--add up to the perception of a failed or unacceptable presidency early on. And I think that would be unfortunate for many reasons including elimination of racism in this country.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:44 am
Fox, A black president will not eliminate racism/discrimination in this country.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:46 am
You're right. A 'black' President will only exacerbate racial resentments. But the first President who happens to be black who does a competent job and earns the respect of the people could do a whole lot to erase latent racist impressions that still linger.
0 Replies
 
mellow yellow
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:47 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Fox, A black president will not eliminate racism/discrimination in this country.


Not outright, though he has the potential of bringing it "on the front burner" as another post read. Perhaps Fox intended to say that by doing so an elimination process could begin. Hmmm... Question
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:48 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
You must have mistaken Obama's campaign slogan guide for my book.


Yes, by all means, please explain it to us.


I'll let Obama do that for you. "Let us reach... for what we know is possible!":

Obama's tendency toward misstatements, miscues, and mistakes:

1- His incorrectly stating in New Mexico on Memorial Day weekend that his uncle helped liberate the victims of Auschwitz, when in fact it was his great uncle who helped liberate Buchenwald. Earlier in 2002 he had said his grandfather knew U.S. troops who had liberated Auschwitz and Treblinka, both of which were liberated by Russian troops alone.

2- On Memorial Day, still in New Mexico, Obama appropriately said that the crowd was gathered to honor America's "fallen heroes", then going on to note that many of those fallen heroes were present with them in the audience as he spoke.

3- Earlier in May, he said that the U.S. had 57 states.

4- Barak Hussein Obama in May said in Portland, Ore., that Iran doesn't "pose a serious threat to us," saying that "tiny countries" with small defense budgets aren't much cause to worry. Iran in fact has around one fourth the population of the U.S. and is engaged in a expansive military development and is extremely close to acquiring nuclear weapons. Obama the very next day had to backtrack, noting that for years he had "made it clear that the threat from Iran is grave."

5- Two weeks ago Obama said in Orlando that he would meet with Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chávez and would include in their discussions Chávez's support of the Marxist FARC guerrillas in Colombia. However, the very next day he insisted in Miami that any country supporting the FARC should suffer "regional isolation." Fund notes that Obama advisers "were left explaining how this circle could be squared."

6- Obama said last year in Selma, Ala., that his birth was inspired by events there which took place four years after he was born.

7-. Last April he denied that the handwriting is his on a questionnaire on which, as a state senate candidate, he stated that he favored a ban on handguns. His campaign now argues that-even if it was his handwriting- this doesn't prove that this was his true position because he may not have read the full questionnaire.

8- Last July in a presidential debate, Obama pledged to meet the leaders of Iran, North Korea, Syria and Cuba without any precondition. He said that President Bush's refusal to do so was "ridiculous" and a "disgrace."

When Obama was overwhelmed with criticism, he dug in rather than relent, claiming, in defense of his position, that John F. Kennedy's 1961 summit with Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev in Vienna was a crucial meeting that led to the end of the Cold War.

This in spite of the fact that Kennedy himself admitted he was unprepared for Khrushchev's bullying. "He beat the hell out of me," Kennedy confided to advisers. Khrushchev described Kennedy to his Politburo as weak. This perception led to the Berlin Wall being erected just two months later. . . where it stood for 28 years!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:48 am
Nothing like a hasty cut and paste to convince me.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:53 am
cjhsa wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
You must have mistaken Obama's campaign slogan guide for my book.


Yes, by all means, please explain it to us.


I'll let Obama do that for you. "Let us reach... for what we know is possible!":

Obama's tendency toward misstatements, miscues, and mistakes:

1- His incorrectly stating in New Mexico on Memorial Day weekend that his uncle helped liberate the victims of Auschwitz, when in fact it was his great uncle who helped liberate Buchenwald. Earlier in 2002 he had said his grandfather knew U.S. troops who had liberated Auschwitz and Treblinka, both of which were liberated by Russian troops alone.

2- On Memorial Day, still in New Mexico, Obama appropriately said that the crowd was gathered to honor America's "fallen heroes", then going on to note that many of those fallen heroes were present with them in the audience as he spoke.

3- Earlier in May, he said that the U.S. had 57 states.

4- Barak Hussein Obama in May said in Portland, Ore., that Iran doesn't "pose a serious threat to us," saying that "tiny countries" with small defense budgets aren't much cause to worry. Iran in fact has around one fourth the population of the U.S. and is engaged in a expansive military development and is extremely close to acquiring nuclear weapons. Obama the very next day had to backtrack, noting that for years he had "made it clear that the threat from Iran is grave."

5- Two weeks ago Obama said in Orlando that he would meet with Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chávez and would include in their discussions Chávez's support of the Marxist FARC guerrillas in Colombia. However, the very next day he insisted in Miami that any country supporting the FARC should suffer "regional isolation." Fund notes that Obama advisers "were left explaining how this circle could be squared."

6- Obama said last year in Selma, Ala., that his birth was inspired by events there which took place four years after he was born.

7-. Last April he denied that the handwriting is his on a questionnaire on which, as a state senate candidate, he stated that he favored a ban on handguns. His campaign now argues that-even if it was his handwriting- this doesn't prove that this was his true position because he may not have read the full questionnaire.

8- Last July in a presidential debate, Obama pledged to meet the leaders of Iran, North Korea, Syria and Cuba without any precondition. He said that President Bush's refusal to do so was "ridiculous" and a "disgrace."

When Obama was overwhelmed with criticism, he dug in rather than relent, claiming, in defense of his position, that John F. Kennedy's 1961 summit with Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev in Vienna was a crucial meeting that led to the end of the Cold War.

This in spite of the fact that Kennedy himself admitted he was unprepared for Khrushchev's bullying. "He beat the hell out of me," Kennedy confided to advisers. Khrushchev described Kennedy to his Politburo as weak. This perception led to the Berlin Wall being erected just two months later. . . where it stood for 28 years!


Compared to the doubling of fuel and food prices, loss of millions of homes by Americans, loss of jobs, devaluation of the dollar never seen in history, and a war in Iraq that been going on for over five years without an exit plan seems a bit more important than your list of complaints.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:55 am
I'm not worried about convincing you of anything. When you showed your true colors by moving to Berzerkeley, I gave up.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:56 am
I have not seen food prices double. Glad I left the loony left coast.

To think the government has some sort of control over commodities markets beyond the short reach of the FRB, boggles my mind.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:58 am
cjhsa wrote:
I have not seen food prices double. Glad I left the loony left coast.

To think the government has some sort of control over commodities markets beyond the short reach of the FRB, boggles my mind.


Food prices have not doubled here. I'm paying the same at the farmer's market that I always have.

Now, some things have gone up; milk, meat, eggs, corn, rice. Staples. Over the last 8 years these things have definitely gone up in price, and that's not limited to the coast, it's everywhere...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 10:59 am
georgeob1 wrote:
I think it is unlikely that Obama or any other Black candidate could escape the label of a potential first Black President, no matter how he (or she) conducted himself. This is simply the inevitable result of the facts of our history, including, slavery, Jim Crow, and the fact that there has not yet been a Balack President. Applying a standard that such a candidate must somehow escape such a label in these circumstances seems unrealistic.

I don't support Obama, but I do acknowledge that he has indeed made a notable effort to identify himself with a broad constituency of which black people are only a part. In that sense I believe he has met the test that Foxfyre suggested.


A sensible enough assessment, which manages completely to avoid the burden of the thread. In the depths of your Jesuitical wisdom, O'George, do you think that there is fear of the thought of a black President, and do you think that there are or are likely to be any demagogues attempting to whip up such fear?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 11:07 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Fox, A black president will not eliminate racism/discrimination in this country.


Cicerone, it might be useful for you to reflect on the question of whether any other country in the world is ever likely to eliminate racism and discrimination either. Only a few countries, notably the U.S. and Brazil, have seriously attempted this on a large scale. To a degree Britain and some other European countries are beginning to encounter the challenges as a result of the immigration of people from former colonies, however, they remain a good deal behind us.

You frequently cite the U.S. internment of Japanese Americans as an example of American intolerance and injustice. It is certainly that, but you persistently fail to acknowledge the contemporary fact of far worse Japanese intolerance and oppression of captive peoples, both within Japan and in lands they conquored. In that your frequent criticisms lack context and perceptive: they are misleading.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 11:09 am
mellow yellow wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Fox, A black president will not eliminate racism/discrimination in this country.


Not outright, though he has the potential of bringing it "on the front burner" as another post read. Perhaps Fox intended to say that by doing so an elimination process could begin. Hmmm... Question


To be honest, when I try to read what people are thinking, the ONLY racism I pick up on these days is the (often erroneous) perception that black people see themselves as victims and entitled and therefore deserve to be taken care of instead of stepping up to the plate and doing what is necessary to accomplish themselves. And when such views are labeled as racist, plus affirmative action that appears to drag down excellence by favoring the less qualified, the underlying anger and resentment is kept alive among some non-black people. Add in the black and white people who see themselves as 'different, and/or who insist on distinguishing between people based on skin color and who resent the white majority or expect the white majority to take a back seat, and you have a persistent overt or underlying racism that is not allowed to die.

Enter a smart, likable, competent person elected the first President who is black, however, and who sees and treats us all as Americans, and I think the dynamics will begin to change. Should he urge us to be a better country and he does not throw up roadblocks to that process, you will have an American idol in the history books that will have done miracles in erasing wrong perceptions from all sides of the racial spectrum. Let him fail, however, and the blame game is likely to accelerate into full throttle. Racist whites will continue to see the black man as not stepping up to the plate; racist blacks will blame "Whitey" for the failure.

That first President who happens to be black won't have to be perfect or outstanding; but we don't want him to fail either if we want a unified electorate in the near future. Is Obama the man for the job? I don't know. From what I have seen so far, I think he could be a disappointment to his fans, but I am open to be convinced otherwise.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 11:14 am
georgeob1 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Fox, A black president will not eliminate racism/discrimination in this country.


Cicerone, it might be useful for you to reflect on the question of whether any other country in the world is ever likely to eliminate racism and discrimination either. Only a few countries, notably the U.S. and Brazil, have seriously attempted this on a large scale. To a degree Britain and some other European countries are beginning to encounter the challenges as a result of the immigration of people from former colonies, however, they remain a good deal behind us.

You frequently cite the U.S. internment of Japanese Americans as an example of American intolerance and injustice. It is certainly that, but you persistently fail to acknowledge the contemporary fact of far worse Japanese intolerance and oppression of captive peoples, both within Japan and in lands they conquored. In that your frequent criticisms lack context and perceptive: they are misleading.


georgeob, I have visited countries that have eliminated racism/discrimination; Costa Rica is a very good example of that. There are others if you wish me to list them.

I have also criticized Japan's atrocities; too bad you missed those.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 11:30 am
There is a lady in the warehouse portion of the manufacturing facility I work for that I've decided to convert. She is the grandmother type that is friendly, caring, concerned and all around; a pretty nice person. Except, she's also a racist. Not the closet variety like many of A2K's dissenting left-leaners, and not the more overt offensive type either (See Cjhsa). She is the "matter of fact variety", who is seemingly too ignorant to even realize there might be something offensive about it. When I compare platforms, and demonstrate how Obama's policies are actually more favorable to her mindset than McCain's; she nods along and accepts that which she believes to be true (most of what I say). Then hits me, matter-of-factly, with, "I'm still not voting for a Chocolate Jesus"... or something to this effect. I take it in stride, with a smile, and remind her that I have until November to change her mind.

Now I'm pretty good, and I'm giving it a couple minutes a day... which cumulatively will be several hours by November... but I'm realistically putting the odds at about 50/50. Confused I can't help but wonder how many people share this mindset... and think it's A LOT. I seriously doubt many people who actually have similar feelings will volunteer to get bashed for it on A2K... but in some circles in small town Wisconsin there is no stigma whatsoever. This is troublesome because in broader forums, the common sense solution for these same individuals to not get bashed is to keep their racism to themselves. Tough to say what effect this has on polling; but certainly some effect and that's not good news for Obama.

By my estimation; if this same lady became an active participant on A2K, she would probably broaden her perspective some... but at the same time she would probably learn to disguise her racism better too. Confused

Both Obama and McCain have opinions I agree and disagree with, strenuously... so policy-wise I am firmly in neither camp. However; my desire to offset the irrational bigot vote compels me to push Obama's platform almost regardless of what I learn between now and November.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 11:32 am
Setanta wrote:

A sensible enough assessment, which manages completely to avoid the burden of the thread. In the depths of your Jesuitical wisdom, O'George, do you think that there is fear of the thought of a black President, and do you think that there are or are likely to be any demagogues attempting to whip up such fear?


Well, thank you (I think) for that. As you undoubtedly noticed, I made no attempt to address any questions beyond those I specifically addressed. I didn't address what you call "the burden of the thread" in my post any more than you did in yours.

Yes, I do believe that there is a fear of a black president among some and do observe some efforts of demagogues to stimulate such fears. I also observe some paranoid fears among others who (I believe) exaggerate these effects and attempt to whip up equivalent efforts to counter it. I don't regard either as particularly significant. The satisfactions that many black people undoubtedly experience at the likely prospect of a Black president are as understandable to me as were those I experienced at the prospect of our first Irish Catholic president, JFK. Overall I believe the country is as ripe for a Black president today as it was for an Irish Catholic in 1960. Similarly, I believe the issue itself will fade as quickly after he is elected.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 11:34 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
georgeob, I have visited countries that have eliminated racism/discrimination; Costa Rica is a very good example of that.
Seconded. I immersed myself in the non-touristy area's with a very dark-skinned Tica I met named Lucy. No one, black, white or any Latin American combination in between so much as batted an eye.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 11:48 am
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/06/barack-obama-jo.html

Quote:
Norquist dropped by The Times' Washington bureau today and, as part of his negative critique of Obama's liberal stances on economic issues and other matters, he termed the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee "John Kerry with a tan."


Nah, nobody is stoking racial stuff at all.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 11:56 am
O'Bill:

Quote:
I can't help but wonder how many people share this mindset... and think it's A LOT


This is a point I've made a few times, and never fail to be rebuffed for it. I don't understand why people don't believe that.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 12:12 pm
snood wrote:
O'Bill:

Quote:
I can't help but wonder how many people share this mindset... and think it's A LOT


This is a point I've made a few times, and never fail to be rebuffed for it. I don't understand why people don't believe that.


I don't think I've ever rebuffed you for it. I see it most every day and know it is still widespread. But, just as there are many whites that won't vote for Obama due to his skin color, I think it also works the other way and there are those that will vote for him because of it.

Maybe not enough to balance, but I hope so. Also, hopefully the younger generation which seems to be more open minded (other than Johnston County NC kinda places) and very mobolized this year, will help put him in office.
0 Replies
 
 

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