Please Answer This Question Obama Supporters

Brand X wrote:

Yeah, it's like saying torture at gitmo didn't flow down from the top.

Cyclo, Brand X has a pretty good point here.

If Obama continues to say that "x, y, or z have been done during my campaign, by my supporters, under my watch, so to speak, but their actions don't represent me", he is simply following what we all hated most about the current administration.

Say it was wrong, give 'em their pink slips, apologize and represent the true colors of America.

Part of the problem, unfortunately, is the image of Muslims in America....and he has done nothing to help change this.

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candidone1 wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Yeah, it's like saying torture at gitmo didn't flow down from the top.

Cyclo, Brand X has a pretty good point here.

If Obama continues to say that "x, y, or z have been done during my campaign, by my supporters, under my watch, so to speak, but their actions don't represent me", he is simply following what we all hated most about the current administration.

Say it was wrong, give 'em their pink slips, apologize and represent the true colors of America.

Part of the problem, unfortunately, is the image of Muslims in America....and he has done nothing to help change this.

Um, okay, let's look at what they said -

Quote:

"This is of course not the policy of the campaign. It is offensive and counter to Obama's commitment to bring Americans together and simply not the kind of campaign we run," said Obama spokesman Bill Burton. "We sincerely apologize for the behavior of these volunteers."

They said it was wrong and offensive, and apologized, and as they are volunteers, it's hard to fire them. What else was he supposed to do?

I don't like this any more then any of you do, but I don't see how it reflects poorly on Obama. My question all along has been: what should he have done, that hasn't been done?

Cycloptichorn

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I know you know how delicate a campaign for President is--and how very closely the top echelon has to be in sync with the candidate's views and how he/she wants to be portrayed.

The link between the top and his chain of command is MUCH more intense than the one you imagined from Bush to Gitmo. Laws and pre-established rules stood between Bush and Gitmo's leaders. Obama is having to make his up on a daily basis--as is necessary with all campaigns... They KNEW how he felt, if they weren't directly told about this particular question. No visibly identifiable Muslims...

How could you claim duplicity in one and not the other?

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Own up to cowing to the political wind, instead of letting lower-downs swing in the wind?

I know. This is Earth...should be used to it. Razz

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Lash wrote:

I know you know how delicate a campaign for President is--and how very closely the top echelon has to be in sync with the candidate's views and how he/she wants to be portrayed.

The link between the top and his chain of command is MUCH more intense than the one you imagined from Bush to Gitmo. Laws and pre-established rules stood between Bush and Gitmo's leaders. Obama is having to make his up on a daily basis--as is necessary with all campaigns... They KNEW how he felt, if they weren't directly told about this particular question. No visibly identifiable Muslims...

How could you claim duplicity in one and not the other?

Oh, I think a little thing called 'evidence' might be used to show the truth in this matter.

I think you are making a false argument here, as nobody has really suggested that it was Bush calling the shots... Now Rumsfeld, he certainly knew what was going on there. There's plenty of evidence that the techniques supposedly 'invented by those onsite' came straight from his office.

On the other hand, evidence that the Obama campaign has a rule against showing muslims on TV? None.

Your argument is specious.

Cycloptichorn

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Lash wrote:

Obama is having to make his up on a daily basis--as is necessary with all campaigns... They KNEW how he felt, if they weren't directly told about this particular question. No visibly identifiable Muslims...

Sure.

Now the question is: has Obama avoided it to be seen in photos with women wearing a hijab?

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

They said it was wrong and offensive, and apologized, and as they are volunteers, it's hard to fire them. What else was he supposed to do?

Find out who instructed the volunteers and fire that person. They're volunteers, they don't likely come up with this **** out of the blue.

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Oh, and I forgot.

Quote:

Laws and pre-established rules stood between Bush and Gitmo's leaders.

Are you f*cking kidding me?

Since when did the Bush administration give two figs for laws and pre-established rules?

This is one of the most ridiculous things you've written.

Cycloptichorn

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old europe wrote:

Lash wrote:
Obama is having to make his up on a daily basis--as is necessary with all campaigns... They KNEW how he felt, if they weren't directly told about this particular question. No visibly identifiable Muslims...

Sure.

Now the question is: has Obama avoided it to be seen in photos with women wearing a hijab?

Well, according to the article no. But I don't know what kind of geographical factors might come in to play.

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Where, then, would the volunteers
1. get the idea that the Obama campaign didn't want any Muslims appearing with Obama on TV, even in the audience
2. feel empowered enough to make the decision to exclude them

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candidone1 wrote:

Where, then, would the volunteers
1. get the idea that the Obama campaign didn't want any Muslims appearing with Obama on TV, even in the audience
2. feel empowered enough to make the decision to exclude them

1, probably from the fact that right-wingers have been trying to smear him as a Muslim (not that that matters to me at all, but apparently a bunch of mouth-breathers here look down on it) in the media constantly, and it's stupid to throw ammo to your opponents.

2, they probably thought they were doing Obama a favor. Big mistake on their part.

Cycloptichorn

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I do think #2 has a lot to do with this. It's the "die by the sword" part of the gamble he's taking by giving so much autonomy to various ground organizations. It's been really helping him in terms of money saved (volunteers vs. professionals), pure numbers of people helping out, creativity involved, etc., etc. But there's a level of control that is given up. And that means that if people mess up -- even the lowest-level people -- that reflects badly on him.

I can see why the volunteers would have thought that they don't want to give any photo ops to the rumor mill. I think they were mistaken though.

And I do think there is a level of magnitude difference between this kind of mistake and the mistakes of people under Bush's command re: Iraq.

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FreeDuck wrote:

old europe wrote:
Lash wrote:
Obama is having to make his up on a daily basis--as is necessary with all campaigns... They KNEW how he felt, if they weren't directly told about this particular question. No visibly identifiable Muslims...

Sure.

Now the question is: has Obama avoided it to be seen in photos with women wearing a hijab?

Well, according to the article no. But I don't know what kind of geographical factors might come in to play.

I don't know. In a national campaign, where images of the candidates are available all across the continent in a second, it's hard for me to see how geographical factors would play a role.

What's the difference of Obama being seen in a photo with hijab wearing Muslim women in Detroit (if that'd be perceived as a negative for the campaign), and McCain nodding and grinning and reading a speech of a teleprompter in front of an audience in Kenner, LA?

Then again, I possible don't have enough knowledge about the States to assess that correctly....

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No, me either. And it's because I don't know that I hold out the possibility that such factors could exist. Don't think it's likely, though.

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He and his staff manipulate the groups he stands in front of--that is proven.

It's amazing to see how the contortions to attempt to deny it.

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The problem is that it is too much like THIS.

Which makes Obama a (brrrr) typical politician, not someone determined to change Washington or how campaigns are run. I don't know that it matters as far as voting. (shrug) Who else is there?

Kinda goes back to that Michelle speaking her mind and Obama shouldn't let her thing. If he wants change, wants it to be different, start now. It would show more backbone for him to say he respects Michelle's views even though they are different from his own on some things, and hey, guess what... I'm not afraid of a muslim woman sitting behind me either cause the Republicans can flash that in ads all they want to show I really am the candidate to unite us.

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Lash wrote:

He and his staff manipulate the groups he stands in front of--that is proven.

It's amazing to see how the contortions to attempt to deny it.

Of course they do; that's what the volunteers were doing at the time. All politicians do this.

And nobody in this thread has denied that.

You're all wet, Lash.

Cycloptichorn

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Here.

When Obama won the North Carolina primary amid questions about his ability to connect with white voters, for instance, he stood in front of a group of middle-aged white women waving small American flags.

(for fairness--AND to demonstrate that backdrop control is a BASIC to campaigns...)

On the Republican side, a Hispanic New Hampshire Democrat, Roberto Fuentes, told Politico that he was recently asked, and declined, to contribute to the "diversity" of the crowd behind Sen. John McCain at a Nashua event.

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