Why Does Barack Obama Want To Ban All Our Guns?

Squirm and call names all you want Oralloy.

Your distortion

oralloy wrote:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2004_record&page=S1634&position=all

Are you now going claim Kennedy didn't say it was all about the .30-30 Winchester and .223 Remington when he first introduced the amendment??

Yes, I am going to say that because anyone that bothers to read Kennedy's ENTIRE statement would realize that his concluding paragraph is NOT just about the .30-.30. In fact the paragraph on the .30-.30 is only a continuation of what weapons have killed officers.

He doesn't mention banning the ammo for that weapon. Nor is his statement about the .223 for ALL .223 ammunition.

Quote:

I direct my colleagues' attention to
the Web site of Hi-Vel, Incorporated, a
self-described exotic products distributor
and manufacturer in Delta,
UT. You can access its online catalog
on the Internet right now. Hi-Vel's
catalog lists an entry for armor-piercing
ammunition. On that page you will
find a listing for armor-piercing bullets
that can penetrate metal objects. The
bullets are available in packages of 10
for $9.95 each. Hi-Vel carries armorpiercing
bullets for both the .223 caliber
rifles such as the Bushmaster sniper
rifle used in the Washington area attacks
in October 2002, and the 7.62 caliber
assault weapons.

farmerman wrote:

You are mis quoting and missrepresenting facts through the GunCite website.

No I'm not. But feel free to try to prove it.

farmerman wrote:

(AS if they represent an objective view of the topic).

Yes, in fact, they are. Feel free to try to prove they aren't if you like though.

You might want to look them over before you actually try talking about them though. Everything they say is fully linked and cited.

<sound of crickets chirping pointedly>

Oralloy, I merely dropped in to spout a point about how its impossible to discuss these points with gun nuts. You make my point admirably. Keep up the good work. GUN CITE is proud of you.

Yelling in an empty hall doesnt qualify as a debate, so Ill leave you to continue shouting to yourself, maybe you can get the others of your ilk to back you up.

[The ammo he refers to may be marketed as "armor-piercing" by that website, but it is "armor-piercing" only in that it is ordinary rifle ammo. Ordinary rifle ammo can penetrate all the things Kennedy listed in his speech, including the Kevlar normally worn by police officers (which is the standard that would have been used to determine if ammo in those calibers would be classed as AP and banned).

AN ARMOR PIERCING PROJECTILE CONTAINS A CORE OF EITHER HARDENED STEEL OR TUNGSTEN CARBIDE WHICH ALLOWS IT TO PENETRATE METAL OBJECTS.

In addition, even if (in a hypothetical where this amendment had passed) the attorney general gave an exemption for the .30-30 contrary to the intent of the legislators who voted to ban it, that exemption wouldn't apply to mil-spec or military surplus ammo, so the law would still have been an unconscionable ban on a wide variety of ammo.

(C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

In addition, even if (in a hypothetical where this amendment had passed) the attorney general gave an exemption for the .30-30 contrary to the intent of the legislators who voted to ban it, that exemption wouldn't apply to mil-spec or military surplus ammo, so the law would still have been an unconscionable ban on a wide variety of ammo.

youve just invoked Godwins LAw , so by the rules of e-debate youve just lost .

Youve been doing all the name calling and mischaracterizing

oralloy wrote:

[The ammo he refers to may be marketed as "armor-piercing" by that website, but it is "armor-piercing" only in that it is ordinary rifle ammo. Ordinary rifle ammo can penetrate all the things Kennedy listed in his speech, including the Kevlar normally worn by police officers (which is the standard that would have been used to determine if ammo in those calibers would be classed as AP and banned).

That is interesting since Hi-Vel's site is there for all to read
http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__18/Armor_Piercing_Ammunition/armor_piercing_ammunition.html

Quote:

AN ARMOR PIERCING PROJECTILE CONTAINS A CORE OF EITHER HARDENED STEEL OR TUNGSTEN CARBIDE WHICH ALLOWS IT TO PENETRATE METAL OBJECTS.

That doesn't sound like "ordinary rifle ammo" to me. Does it to you?

Quote:

In addition, even if (in a hypothetical where this amendment had passed) the attorney general gave an exemption for the .30-30 contrary to the intent of the legislators who voted to ban it, that exemption wouldn't apply to mil-spec or military surplus ammo, so the law would still have been an unconscionable ban on a wide variety of ammo.

I see you now have ESP and know the intention of everyone that voted for or against that amendment. Could you tell us again how it changed this part of the existing law?

Quote:

(C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

Link to the existing law

It would be great if you could use your ESP and tell us how and why each Senator thought this part of the law would disappear by changing the part preceding it.

Perhaps the deer in Oralloy's neighborhood long ago took to wearing kevlar, and he therefore has a different conception of "ordinary rifle ammunition" than we do.

Quote:

In addition, even if (in a hypothetical where this amendment had passed) the attorney general gave an exemption for the .30-30 contrary to the intent of the legislators who voted to ban it, that exemption wouldn't apply to mil-spec or military surplus ammo, so the law would still have been an unconscionable ban on a wide variety of ammo.

This makes no sense in light of the wording of the amendment. The attorney general doesn't give "exemptions" based on the legislation you claim would ban .30-.30 ammo. The attorney general sets up the guidelines for testing which ammo is classified as armor piercing. Ammunition can't be classified as armor piercing until it is tested and shown to penetrate body armor based on the testing set up by the attorney general.

You have no evidence to begin with that any attorney general would classify .30-.30 ammo as "pistol" ammunition for testing.

I wouldn't do any such thing if I were attorney general. Would you?

parados wrote:

oralloy wrote:

[The ammo he refers to may be marketed as "armor-piercing" by that website, but it is "armor-piercing" only in that it is ordinary rifle ammo. Ordinary rifle ammo can penetrate all the things Kennedy listed in his speech, including the Kevlar normally worn by police officers (which is the standard that would have been used to determine if ammo in those calibers would be classed as AP and banned).

That is interesting since Hi-Vel's site is there for all to read
http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__18/Armor_Piercing_Ammunition/armor_piercing_ammunition.html

Quote:

AN ARMOR PIERCING PROJECTILE CONTAINS A CORE OF EITHER HARDENED STEEL OR TUNGSTEN CARBIDE WHICH ALLOWS IT TO PENETRATE METAL OBJECTS.

That doesn't sound like "ordinary rifle ammo" to me. Does it to you?

No, but it also doesn't sound like the ammo they are selling, given that federal law already makes it illegal to sell such ammo in two of the three calibers they list (.223 Remington and Soviet 7.62x39), and since the SS109 they list for the .223 Remington does NOT have such a steel or tungsten core.

Their AK74 ammo might be armor piercing. So far as I know, it is still legal to sell AP ammo in that caliber. But by the same token, Kennedy's proposed amendment wouldn't touch the AK74 either.

The Senators who voted for it don't know a .30-30 from a stinger missile, and did not realize that the round had any sporting purpose when they voted to ban it.

Yes I do. The attorney general already considers it to be such a round based on the "may be used in a handgun" that is in existing law. And the wording in the amendment "may be used in a handgun" is rather conspicuously identical to that.

No. If I were AG, anyone who called for any restrictions on AP ammo would wake up in Guantanamo.

oralloy wrote:

parados wrote:

oralloy wrote:

[The ammo he refers to may be marketed as "armor-piercing" by that website, but it is "armor-piercing" only in that it is ordinary rifle ammo. Ordinary rifle ammo can penetrate all the things Kennedy listed in his speech, including the Kevlar normally worn by police officers (which is the standard that would have been used to determine if ammo in those calibers would be classed as AP and banned).

That is interesting since Hi-Vel's site is there for all to read
http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__18/Armor_Piercing_Ammunition/armor_piercing_ammunition.html

Quote:

AN ARMOR PIERCING PROJECTILE CONTAINS A CORE OF EITHER HARDENED STEEL OR TUNGSTEN CARBIDE WHICH ALLOWS IT TO PENETRATE METAL OBJECTS.

That doesn't sound like "ordinary rifle ammo" to me. Does it to you?

No, but it also doesn't sound like the ammo they are selling, given that federal law already makes it illegal to sell such ammo in two of the three calibers they list (.223 Remington and Soviet 7.62x39), and since the SS109 they list for the .223 Remington does NOT have such a steel or tungsten core.

Their AK74 ammo might be armor piercing. So far as I know, it is still legal to sell AP ammo in that caliber. But by the same token, Kennedy's proposed amendment wouldn't touch the AK74 either.

Which law makes the listed bullets illegal?
Please cite it and explain how they are illegal with citation to show why they are illegal.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

I would be happy to report the company for selling illegal ammunition but I need more info than just your unsupported claim.

oralloy wrote:

The Senators who voted for it don't know a .30-30 from a stinger missile, and did not realize that the round had any sporting purpose when they voted to ban it.

While you are at it could you provide support for this statement? Your opinion seems to fly in the face of reality. Kennedy served in the military and has voted for stinger missiles for many years.

Some of the others you are claiming don't know the difference have either hunted or served in the military or both. Your argument is nothing but emotional BS that has no basis in any reality.