A Vice Presidental candidate thread.

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

You're just too innocent Cyclo. I trust not disingenuous.

I note that you have abandoned any pretense of respecting the 'legal framework.'

Cycloptichorn

@Cycloptichorn,

Well you did that at the beginning. What legally secure evidence do you have for anything you have said? What do you, or I, know about this affair except that you want to beat up on Mrs Palin and I don't until I've seen the i's dotted and the t's crossed. Which I never will I would think.

Evidence from media sources which also want to beat up on Mrs Palin is not evidence at all.

Are you saying, as a fact, that the lady abused her powers?

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Well you did that at the beginning. What legally secure evidence do you have for anything you have said? What do you, or I, know about this affair except that you want to beat up on Mrs Palin and I don't until I've seen the i's dotted and the t's crossed. Which I never will I would think.

Evidence from media sources which also want to beat up on Mrs Palin is not evidence at all.

Are you saying, as a fact, that the lady abused her powers?

You can't make a statement like that as a 'fact.' I think there is ample evidence that she did it, but I am not in a position to make a legally binding decision of that type, Spendi.

Unlike you, I do respect the rule of law. I know a lot more about this affair then you do, for I have researched it and looked into the case, reading opinions and historical accounts from many angles, including Republican sources, to reach my conclusion on the matter. You obviously have not done so.

Yes, it is illegal for the Gov. to single out a unionized employee and fire them over a personal dispute. You don't seem to understand that this is the whole reason the Republican legislature decided to investigate her in the first place.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

I bow to your superior wisdom Cyclo.

0 Replies

ALASKAN State Trooper Mike Wooten admitted yesterday he had used a Taser stun gun on Sarah Palin's nephew, his stepson, but claimed he was no danger to her family. Rolling Eyes

Mr Wooten - who is Mrs Palin's former brother-in-law - is at the heart of a legislative investigation into whether the Republican vice-presidential nominee abused her power as Alaska Governor.

The state legislature is investigating whether she fired former public safety commissioner Walt Monegan because he would not dismiss Mr Wooten, who went through a messy divorce from Mrs Palin's sister, Molly.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24325497-5012748,00.html

The real question is WHY did not Monegan fire this clown?

2 Replies

@Woiyo9,

Woiyo9 wrote:

ALASKAN State Trooper Mike Wooten admitted yesterday he had used a Taser stun gun on Sarah Palin's nephew, his stepson, but claimed he was no danger to her family.

Mr Wooten - who is Mrs Palin's former brother-in-law - is at the heart of a legislative investigation into whether the Republican vice-presidential nominee abused her power as Alaska Governor.

The state legislature is investigating whether she fired former public safety commissioner Walt Monegan because he would not dismiss Mr Wooten, who went through a messy divorce from Mrs Palin's sister, Molly.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24325497-5012748,00.html

The real question is WHY did not Monegan fire this clown?

Geez, how many times do you guys have to have the same simple facts explained to you?

The cop was suspended for a week or so as punishment after an internal investigation. That's how these things work. He wasn't fired, b/c there wasn't enough evidence that he should have been fired. Now, I'm no friend of the police, and I'm sure this guy is a scuzzball. But that doesn't excuse an abuse of power on the part of the Governor.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Well, she didn't single out her brother-in-law and fire him. She allegedly put pressure on another state employee and tried to get that man to have her brother-in-law fired--and when that man wouldn't do her bidding, she fired him. That's what she is accused of doing. That was her possible abuse of power as governor.

It is more damaging to Palin's campaign to leave this matter hanging. She might be found innocent of the charges. The longer it drags out, the more the negative speculation about her ethics continues. So, her lack of complete cooperation is not really in her best interests--it makes it look like she's trying to hide something.

Whether Palin and her family personally and legally harrassed the brother-in-law is a whole different matter. That, if true, says more about her personality/character and temperament, which is a different factor in assessing her fitness to be VP or president. It does not really relate to her ethics or abuse of power as governor.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Well, she didn't single out her brother-in-law and fire him. She allegedly put pressure on another state employee and tried to get that man to have her brother-in-law fired--and when that man wouldn't do her bidding, she fired him. That's what she is accused of doing. That was her possible abuse of power as governor.

It is more damaging to Palin's campaign to leave this matter hanging. She might be found innocent of the charges. The longer it drags out, the more the negative speculation about her ethics continues. So, her lack of complete cooperation is not really in her best interests--it makes it look like she's trying to hide something.

Whether Palin and her family personally and legally harrassed the brother-in-law is a whole different matter. That, if true, says more about her personality/character and temperament, which is a different factor in assessing her fitness to be VP or president. It does not really relate to her ethics or abuse of power as governor.

Well, it provides additional evidence that she had a vendetta against this guy, and that directly contradicts some of her other statements on the issue.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Noam Scheiber observes that one of the most striking things about the McCain ad about Obama's lipstick remark is that

Quote:

it so completely inverts the traditional elites-versus-Middle-America dynamic. If you didn't know anything about who said what, you'd probably assume it was some good ole' boy who alluded to lipstick on a pig and some liberal women's group that took offense. Instead it's basically the opposite.

1 Reply

@nimh,

Also, McCain made the exact same "pig with lipstick" remark about one of Hillary Clinton's positions last fall. I don't recall anyone getting hysterical about what he said, or demanding an apology.

The Republicans are just trying to play the "sexism victim card" by demanding an apology about Obama's remark. They hope if they can help her to appear to be the victim it will generate sympathy for her and distract from the substance of Obama's remarks.
If they keep portraying her as the poor, helpless victim, it helps to deflect or block any criticism or real appraisal of her. But it already seems very phony, and they have done too much whining in the past week. Politics is tough, and the Republicans can't keep hiding behind a woman's skirts. Besides, they are the ones doing most of the smearing and distorting, and the campaign's only a week old.

3 Replies

@firefly,

Will it get better ff? We are all hoping it gets really dirty.

0 Replies

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Also, McCain made the exact same "pig with lipstick" remark about one of Hillary Clinton's positions last fall. I don't recall anyone getting hysterical about what he said, or demanding an apology.

The Republicans are just trying to play the "sexism victim card" by demanding an apology about Obama's remark. They hope if they can help her to appear to be the victim it will generate sympathy for her and distract from the substance of Obama's remarks.
If they keep portraying her as the poor, helpless victim, it helps to deflect or block any criticism or real appraisal of her. But it already seems very phony, and they have done too much whining in the past week. Politics is tough, and the Republicans can't keep hiding behind a woman's skirts. Besides, they are the ones doing most of the smearing and distorting, and the campaign's only a week old.

It's the timing. Is it really that hard of a concept?

Last week Palin made the comment "What's the difference between a hocky mom and a pitbull? Lipstick."

Now this week Obama says you can put a pig in lipstick. Obviously the freshness of Palin's comment is still in the minds of people. So, the implication is that Palin is a pig. Please excuse some people for getting insulted.

2 Replies

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

firefly wrote:

Also, McCain made the exact same "pig with lipstick" remark about one of Hillary Clinton's positions last fall. I don't recall anyone getting hysterical about what he said, or demanding an apology.

The Republicans are just trying to play the "sexism victim card" by demanding an apology about Obama's remark. They hope if they can help her to appear to be the victim it will generate sympathy for her and distract from the substance of Obama's remarks.
If they keep portraying her as the poor, helpless victim, it helps to deflect or block any criticism or real appraisal of her. But it already seems very phony, and they have done too much whining in the past week. Politics is tough, and the Republicans can't keep hiding behind a woman's skirts. Besides, they are the ones doing most of the smearing and distorting, and the campaign's only a week old.

It's the timing. Is it really that hard of a concept?

Last week Palin made the comment "What's the difference between a hocky mom and a pitbull? Lipstick."

Now this week Obama says you can put a pig in lipstick. Obviously the freshness of Palin's comment is still in the minds of people. So, the implication is that Palin is a pig. Please excuse some people for getting insulted.

Why should we? You are looking for a reason to be insulted. It's not genuine. It's politics. And it's not convincing to anyone.

Palin is the lipstick, McCain is the pig, ya maroons. How you guys could not understand the joke is beyon... actually, it's not surprising at all, now that I think about it.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@firefly,

The reason they do it is cause they know it works. Doesn't say much of their politics or ethics, but they're winning.

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@Woiyo9,

It appears you haven't done any research on the use of the taser on Palin's nephew.

Quote:

His stepson was asking about the equipment and wanted to try it, he said. "I didn't shoot him with live cartridges and probes. It was a training aid that he was hooked up to, just little clips. And, you know, the Taser was activated for less than a second, which would be less than what you would get if you touched an electric fence. ... It was as safe as I could possibly make it."

He said his stepson was on the living room floor surrounded by pillows, that he "was bragging about it," and that the family laughed about it.

Asked whether it was a "dumb decision", he said: "Yes, absolutely."

Wooten was reprimanded for using public property for personal use in the taser incident.

2 Replies

@parados,

Lets see now, this has also been established:

Troopers eventually investigated 13 issues and found four in which Wooten violated policy or broke the law or both:

• Wooten used a Taser on his stepson.

• He illegally shot a moose.

• He drank beer in his patrol car on one occasion.

• He told others his father-in-law would "eat a f'ing lead bullet" if he helped his daughter get an attorney for the divorce.

Based on what I am reading, that may be the tip of the iceberg. I think he is not trooper material, drinking on the job, making death threats, tazering his stepson. One wonders what else. It sounds like the union blocked him being fired. But I may be tempted to agree with what Mike Gravel said, he should be fired before he kills somebody.

Maybe Palin did the right thing, guys. Life and limb trumps alot of things.

0 Replies

Biden apparently admits Clinton might have been a better pick than him! That is kind of hilarious, isn't it. A vp says his running mate essentially should have picked somebody else, now that genders alot of enthusiasm for Obama's judgement, and for Biden, LOL. I can imagine Obama if he was there, hearing his choice of vp tell the crowd, hey, Clinton might have made a better vp than me, Obama may have made a mistake when he picked me. Thats funny. Maybe he is wishing he was not the vp? Maybe his is wishing he did not have to go through with this mess with Obama?

"Joe Biden said Wednesday that Hillary Clinton “might have been a better pick than me” to be Barack Obama’s running mate.

The Delaware senator was responding to an audience member at a town hall meeting in Nashua, N.H., who criticized Clinton and said it’s a good thing Obama chose Biden over her.

“Make no mistake about this, Hillary Clinton is as qualified or more qualified than I am to be vice president of the United States of America. Lets get that straight,” Biden said in Clinton’s defense.

“She’s easily qualified to be vice president … and quite frankly, might have been a better pick than me. But she’s first rate. I mean that sincerely. She is first rate. So let’s get that straight,” he said."

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/10/biden-hillary-clinton-might-have-been-a-better-pick-for-vp/

2 Replies

@spendius,

spendius wrote: "What's the point in being loaded down with the heavy burdens of a Govenorship if you can't hire and fire who you want. Don't we choose our leaders as our best hope to have things run properly? To govern within a legal framework."

Highway patrolmen or troopers are NOT political appointees, they are public employees. Most state public employees, either by written policy, statute, or collective bargaining contract may only be discharged for cause. I believe the trooper in this case was covered by a union contract. Accordingly, he was entitled to due process secured by the Constitution. In Cleveland Board of Education v. Loudermill, 470 U.S. 532 (1985), the SC ruled that due process requires notice of the charges on which the discipline is based, an opportunity to review the evidence, and an opportunity to respond to the charges.

Palin's multiple complaints against her brother-in-law were investigated in 2005 and subjected to established disciplinary procedures. Two charges were substantiated or admitted, and the trooper was disciplined. Palin was upset that the trooper was suspended rather than fired. But, the legal principle of "res judicata" applies. The matter was decided and it was therefore final. Palin's attempt to reopen the matter when she became governor in 2007 was an abuse of power, plain and simple. She refused to accept that the matter was settled and placed substantial pressure on her political appointee to fire the trooper. However, her political appointee could not achieve Palin's goal without placing himself above the law and violating the trooper's rights. Thus, Palin fired the political appointee.

The political appointee may serve at the pleasure of the governor, but that does not mean that the governor's conduct is not subject to plenary review by the legislature. Whether she fired the political appointee or not--his firing isn't the issue. The issue is whether Palin was abusing her power in a long-held grudging attempt to get her brother-in-law fired in violation of her brother-in-law's right to due process. After all, the matter concerning her brother-in-law was res judicata. The pitbull should have stopped chewing on that bone a long time ago.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote: "Wooten was reprimanded for using public property for personal use in the taser incident."

The taser incident was a hilarious laughing matter in the Palin family until Palin's sister and her brother-in-law decided to get divorced and fought over the kids. Then it was convenient for the Palins to "reinvent" history in their efforts to destroy the man.

Additionally, the hunting out of season charge was just as vindictive because the man's hunting partner was Sarah Palin's dad--and he's a public school substitute teacher. Perhaps she should have fought to have her dad fired too.

0 Replies

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

Last week Palin made the comment "What's the difference between a hocky mom and a pitbull? Lipstick."

Now this week Obama says you can put a pig in lipstick. Obviously the freshness of Palin's comment is still in the minds of people. So, the implication is that Palin is a pig.

Sounds pretty far-fetched to me. What, now all words that Palin has recently prominently used are off-limits to use in any negative sentence, however unrelated? Can you imagine the kind of scorn and ridicule PC-fighters like you would heap upon the Democrats if they'd try to sell people that kind of argument?

1 Reply

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