29
   

A Vice Presidental candidate thread.

 
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 04:46 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Biden apparently admits Clinton might have been a better pick than him! That is kind of hilarious, isn't it. [..]

“Make no mistake about this, Hillary Clinton is as qualified or more qualified than I am to be vice president of the United States of America. Lets get that straight,” Biden said in Clinton’s defense.

“She’s easily qualified to be vice president … and quite frankly, might have been a better pick than me. But she’s first rate. I mean that sincerely. She is first rate. So let’s get that straight,” he said."


Oh fer chrissakes Okie, he was just being courteous. Gallantry, shouldnt conservatives appreciate that?

If he'd have said the opposite you would have screamed bloody murder about the disrespect, now you mock him for being too complementary. I guess if you're hellbent enough on finding something negative, you always will.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 05:42 am
@Debra Law,
The French have an expression which means --that which does not offend society, has nothing to do with justice. (Ce qui n'offense pas la societe, n'est pas du ressort de la justice.)

I think "society" probably thinks this case is six of one and half a dozen of the other and not to be taken too seriously. The Governor may well have thought, from things shouted in anger, that the trooper was hell bent on bringing her, her family and her Governorship into disrepute at the first chance he got. Hence premptive action.

And squeamish political appointees can always get a job in a supermarket.

But I do understand the lawyer types trying to squeeze every last morsel out of every situation by the application of pedantic interpretations. Such types are viewed here in England with a similar amused contempt as are acrobats and magicians. They are recognised, particularly by injured parties, as a necessary adjunct to the state but it is also recognised that they have the capacity to paralyse governance if allowed too much influence.

What we need in this case is a judge and jury with witnesses under oath and until that time we are are all more or less in the dark and using hearsay and prejudiced flannel.

Pitbulls are not the only species in the animal kingdom which chews on bones. Some gnaw on them and grind them with their molars.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 06:12 am
@okie,
In some ways Hillary would have been a better pick for VP than Biden, but not in other respects.

Obama/Clinton would have made for a more exciting ticket than Obama/Biden, simply in terms of historical novelty, and also because Clinton generates strong emotions, both pro and con. And the media would have been speculating about tensions between the two, the Clinton-haters would have come out of the woodwork armed with smears, and all kinds of irrelevant nonsense would have dominated the discussion. It would have been more exciting in terms of media hype. Also you would have had two candidates with very strong and enthusiatic supporters within the Democratic party

But, the point isn't just to have exciting campaigns, it's really about electing the best people for the job. It's about what happens after the campaign.

As much as I wanted the ticket to be Clinton/Obama, I don't think Obama/Clinton would have worked well in reality, after the election, if they won.

If I were Obama, and I won the presidency, the last thing I would want to deal with would be the constant presence of Bill Clinton hovering in the background, and throwing his two cents in. I think one of Hillary's biggest liability's during her campaign turned out to be her husband. He should have kept his mouth shut, or simply served to support her, but he didn't do that. She is clearly her own woman, and she can deal with her husband. As president, it would have been an advantage for her to have a former president by her side, simply for the benefit of his experience and opinion, and she would have found an appropriate formal role for him. If she were vice president, however, I think the presence of Bill Clinton would have been much more problematic--for Obama. Also, I'm not convinced she would have wanted to be VP. She can actually have a more important role if she simply remains in the Senate. She is now a major national and international figure in her own right, and she doesn't need to be VP, her future is very bright. I really never expected her to be on the ticket as VP.

I find what's going on with the "Palin phenomenon" truly baffling. On the basis of one major speech, which she did not write herself, this unknown woman is attracting huge crowds and disproportionate media attention, and she is overshadowing the man who is actually running for president at the top of the ticket. Why? What is the rational basis for the adulation--or is there no rational basis for it?

During the primaries, Obama seemed to rise quickly from relative political obscurity on the national level, and he began attracting huge crowds and generating lots of excitement. But Obama had national recognition before the primaries began. He had delivered a great speech at the DNC in 2004, and he had authored several best-selling books, and lots of people knew him through his books. The excitement he generated was based on his ideas and the sorts of things he was saying and communicating to people. He was not an unknown quantity.

Palin is an unknown quantity--in terms of her political views and her understanding of complex issues on both the national and international level. We know she's female, has 5 kids, is socially conservative, is very religious, likes to hunt and eat moose, has a spunky, folksy style, was the mayor of a tiny town, and has been governor of a sparsely populated state for two years. Anything there to generate mega-excitement and huge crowds? Well, she's a fresh face and voice, an ex-beauty contestant, and she's still a very attractive woman who wears tight skirts. Is that it? That helps, but it still doesn't explain the hoopla.

Is this American Idol or a presidential race?

The woman has yet to open her mouth in an unscripted interview or speech. She has yet to prove that she understands anything besides what's good for Alaska.

Perhaps Palin will turn out to be a good choice after the voters get to actually know what she thinks, how she thinks, and whether she can demonstrate she is up to doing the second highest job in the land.

But, at this point, she is still a pending blind date for voters. To decide they love her, and want to marry her by making her their VP, before even having had that first date--where you get to actually listen to her, in her own words---is completely irrational. If your child came home and said they wanted to marry someone they hadn't met, had only seen from afar, but had heard great things about, you would tell them they were being crazy, irresponsible, and lacking judgment.

Well, I'm telling all love-smitten Palin fans, who think she will be a great VP, you are being crazy, irresponsible, and lacking judgment. You have to get to know her--everything about her that you can--before you decide she will be an adequate VP or possible president. Stop cheering punch lines, and start demanding that she answer tough questions--any and all tough questions.

All of the hysteria and hoopla about Palin indicates what's wrong with our current media-driven campaign process, not what's good about it. It reflects spin, style, and image-creation, and not substance or fitness for office. It suggests that voters use something other than their brains when they make the most crucial choices for our country. It does not reflect well on the maturity or intelligence of the American people.

Is this American Idol or a presidential race?




McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 06:18 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Last week Palin made the comment "What's the difference between a hocky mom and a pitbull? Lipstick."

Now this week Obama says you can put a pig in lipstick. Obviously the freshness of Palin's comment is still in the minds of people. So, the implication is that Palin is a pig.

Sounds pretty far-fetched to me. What, now all words that Palin has recently prominently used are off-limits to use in any negative sentence, however unrelated? Can you imagine the kind of scorn and ridicule PC-fighters like you would heap upon the Democrats if they'd try to sell people that kind of argument?


Could you imagine tha hullabaloo that would be raised by so many Democrats if the roles were reversed? We'd never hear the end of it, so save the patronism.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 07:11 am
@firefly,
Nice post, firefly. If I haven't said so already, I really appreciate the thoughtfulness you bring to these discussions.

Personally, I think the Palin phenomenon can be summarized thusly: "OMG we might be able to win after all!!!" I think it's a self-feeding phenomenon though and therefore will fizzle out.

Edit: IF the Obama campaign handles it correctly, and I think they have been so far. If the Obama campaign fumbles, that will create its own issues.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 07:39 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
Could you imagine tha hullabaloo that would be raised by so many Democrats if the roles were reversed?

Yeah, and it would have been stupid too. So why do you suddenly think it makes sense now the Republicans do it? Isnt it exactly the kind of thing you'd normally rail against?
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 07:52 am
@nimh,
Much like you are doing most likely.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 08:04 am
This is fun -- a McCain ad (from the primaries) attacking earmarks:



First one: Bridge to nowhere. We know all about that. (Palin tried to get it, and gave in when it was clear it wasn't going to happen.)

Second one: 3 million to study the DNA of bears. Guess what?

Quote:
Palin, meanwhile, has requested $3.2 million to be spent in part researching the “genetics of harbor seals,” in one of the state’s many requests for federal funding of research into Alaska’s fauna.


http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=4E2E5BFD-18FE-70B2-A815903CFF648F68
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 08:22 am
wuh oh.

Quote:
Palin Warned of Trooper-Gate "Wolves" by Ethics Adviser, Letter Shows
By Kate Klonick - September 11, 2008, 9:19AM

Sarah Palin was counseled by an ethics adviser on the gravity of the allegations against her in the burgeoning Trooper-Gate scandal -- and encouraged to apologize -- letters reviewed by the Wall Street Journal show.

A former U.S. attorney, Wevley Shea, wrote two letters (pdf) to the Alaska governor, once in July and once in early August, stating that Palin's "'political advisors' have given you poor counsel; the situation is now grave. . . I am extremely concerned about certain 'wolves' if my recommended action is not taken immediately."

Shea gave the following recommendations to Palin in a letter dated July 24:

Apologize for not personally terminating Commissioner of Public Safety Walt Monegan. Apologize for your statements regarding Commissioner Monegan in Press Release no. 08-125. Apologize, with Todd, for overreaching or perceived overreaching on Trooper Mike Wooten. Terminate any "state advisor" who addressed Trooper Wooten with Commissioner Monegan. Withdraw former Kenai Police Chief Chuck Kopp's name as Commissioner of Public Safety. Do not, in writing [as in Press Release no. 08-125], "define" the credibility of state employees.

Palin had previously commissioned Shea in late 2006 to co-write an ethics report recommending new financial-disclosure rules for elected and appointed statehouse officials.


http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/palin_warned_of_troopergate_wo.php

PDFs of the letters at the link.

So, Palin was advised that she was entering dangerous territory by a former US Attorney? Someone who knew the law, and knew what she had done was very wrong?

Looking worse and worse for Palin. The evidence just sort of trickles out, a little bit every day, that she really did abuse her power. This is not going to end well for her.

Cycloptichorn
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 08:44 am
@McGentrix,
You must have missed where I wrote that if the roles were reversed, "Yeah, .. it would have been stupid too."

But thanks for owning up to making hay of this issue when you would have dismissed it if the same thing had been argued by Democrats.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 08:54 am
@Cycloptichorn,
It's going to really begin when she starts taking interviews.

1. She can answer the questions and risk lying
2. She can answer the questions and risk telling the truth
3. She can refuse to answer any questions because of the ongoing investigation.

Not much of an upside there and they can't attack reporters for asking what is obviously a valid question. It would be sexist to not ask it.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 08:59 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote-

Quote:
Is this American Idol or a presidential race?


I've been telling you that it is a movie since before the primaries got going. It is casted and scripted by Media for obvious reasons.

Bernard Shaw said that 100% Americans are 95% village idiots.

On the animal symbolisms, Ted Hughes in his Shakespeare and the Goddess of Complete Being wrote in a footnote-

Quote:
The Boar's peculiarly hermaphroditic nature is almost universally recognized in mythology. This presumably derives from our long and intimate acqaintance with the unique bodily character of this most impressive, dangerous, fascinating and human of the animals that are both domesticated and hunted. As a matriarch equally well known, the cow has been given the benign, spiritual role of the nursing mother. But the sow has attracted different associations. Her combination of gross whiskery nakedness and riotous carnality is siezed by the mythic imagination, evidently, as a sort of uterus on the loose--upholstered with breasts, not so much many-breasted as a mobile tub entirely made of female sexual parts, a woman-sized, multiple udder on trotters. Most alarming of all is that elephantine, lolling mouth under her great ear-flaps, like a Breughelesque nightmare vagina, baggy with over-production, famous for gobbling her piglets, magnified and shameless, exuberantly omniverous and insatiable, swamping the senses. The sow has supplanted all other beasts as the elemental mother ( even Zeus was born of a sow, even Demeter, Mother of Iacchos/ Dionysus and Persephone , was a sow. But she fulfills an ambiguous lunar role. Her variable dark part is sinister, not only because she incorporates more shocking physical familiarity, more radical enterprise, more rapturous appetite, cruder travesties of infantile memory, wilder nostalgias, than the cow, but because she is inseperable from the lethal factor of the Boar, who carries the same vaginal grin yet is prodigiously virile--that same swinging, earth-searching, root-ripping mouth but equipped with moon-sickle tusks-- and who incarnates the most determined, sudden and murderous temperment. (As a country boy, and the nephew of several farmers, Shakespeare enjoyed a familiarity with pigs that is not irrelevant to his myth. The imagination's symbols are based on subliminal perception. The male, aphrodisiac pherenome scent spray, sold in modern sex shops, is commonly based on a hormone extract from the wild boar.) This figure of the Boar has assimilated the magical birth-source of the Sow to create a symbol that emerges, in a man's eyes, from everything about female sexuality that is awesome, alien, terrifying and 'beyond' the reaches of his soul. So the Boar becomes the animal form of the Queen of Hell, the Black Witch, the Terrible Mother, bringing the crippling wound in the thigh, wherever he enters man's fantasy. In his role in this myth of the god who dies for and by the Goddess, and who is reborn to destroy her, he appears at the centre of religious mysteries, and Shakespeare could have found him, in the same role, as easily in England (for instance, as the Twrch Trwyth, the terrible Boar King, who is hunted through the Celtic world in the gret Welsh myth of Culhwch and Olwen) as in classical mythology.


Which suggests that Mr McCain had advice from some Jungians or somesuch. That a yearning for atavistic traits was close to the surface in the American body politic. Certainly no treatment of all the symbolisms involved in the great story by Media suggests anything else except possibly the veiling of the udders in the picture of the lipsticked pig.

Have you ever seen anything as funny as that lot ff in your literature PhD courses? e-mail it to Gore Vidal.

0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 09:22 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Is this American Idol or a presidential race?

Which party started it, firefly, I respectfully ask?

I would agree about Hillary, if I was Obama, I wouldn't have them anywhere around either, and if I did I would hire a personal food taster, but be that as it may he would have had a better chance to win with Hillary. And it is stupid stupid stupid for Biden to say she might have been a better pick on the campaign trail, just my opinion. Besides, I have a very difficult time understanding the Hillary Clinton loyalists. I have yet to figure out what she has ever done in her life, worthy of real note. And her record is pocked with corruption scandals. Go figure. Its a mystery to me.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:01 am
@okie,
And firefly, Obama supporters are claiming he is the messiah, that Jesus was a community organizer, etc. etc. Good grief, where do these people come from??????

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/09/10/kossified-congressman-obama-was-a-community-organizer-like-jesus/
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:39 am
@firefly,
firefly: Thank you for your excellent post.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:47 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Re: Palin Warned of Trooper-Gate "Wolves" by Ethics Adviser, Letter Shows

Quote:
Apologize for your statements regarding Commissioner Monegan in Press Release no. 08-125. . . . Do not, in writing [as in Press Release no. 08-125], "define" the credibility of state employees.



Here is Palin's press release no. 08-125:

Quote:
Palin Responds to Latest Falsehoods
Addresses Commissioner's Comments

No. 08-125

July 22, 2008, Juneau, Alaska " Governor Sarah Palin today strongly denied the latest accusations made by the former commissioner of the Department of Public Safety. The Governor also released details of her schedule outlining her meetings with former Commissioner Walt Monegan.

Through various media outlets, Monegan has accused the Governor of expressing concerns about the contents of an annual trooper report. “Walt has falsely accused me of making a comment to him that a draft report on troopers’ activities would somehow make my administration look bad,” Governor Palin said. “Why would it? I would welcome further proof that my administration needs the resources we requested to get the job done. My administration asked for nearly $7 million more for the Department of Public Safety. However, working with the dollars that the legislature funded, I am confident that under new leadership, we will develop new public safety initiatives that are reasonable and actionable.”

For more than a week, Monegan has also falsely accused the Governor of having only four in-person meetings with him over the last 17 months. In fact, a quick review of state records proves more than two-dozen meetings, including one-on-one meetings and calls, Cabinet meetings and visits to the Governor’s home. This does not include meetings with the Chief of Staff and Special Assistants, community events and staff functions. Notably, the Governor and the former Commissioner made several trips to remote areas of the state in an effort to address public safety issues in rural Alaska. In fact, there were three separate trips that the Governor and former commissioner Monegan took together including Bethel, Dillingham and twice to New Stuyahok. During those trips, the Governor and Monegan were seated together and spent their days together tackling rural issues. Several commissioners and cabinet members have also countered Monegan’s claims.

“Communication has always been paramount in Governor Palin’s administration,” acting Chief of Staff Mike Nizich said. “Commissioners have always had open access to the governor and members of her top staff. It is unfortunate that a former commissioner has deliberately and inaccurately portrayed her as inaccessible.” “I have open communication with Governor Palin and her staff,” Labor Commissioner Click Bishop said. “Anytime I have asked to have a meeting with the Governor, I have been given the opportunity.” “The Governor has made herself available every time I have asked for advice, guidance or support,” Corrections Commissioner Joe Schmidt said. “She’s been one hundred percent supportive, and she’s an excellent listener. Governor Palin never micro-manages and has never interfered with any operation or development of the Department of Corrections.”

"Governor Palin has always been accessible to me,” Military and Veterans Affairs Commissioner Craig Campbell said. “Whenever she or I have had the need to discuss any issue, we have been able to. For those who think that our Governor is not accessible, all you have to see is the hours she and her top staff put in. She is communicating all hours of the day and night. Our meeting and travel schedules are extremely packed, we are very busy; however, I have never had any difficulty communicating with her no matter where I may be. I do not believe that my experience is any different than those of her Cabinet."

“I have no problems communicating back and forth with the Governor,” Director of State and Federal Relations John Katz said. “Often, this occurs in e-mails between her and me. She is almost instantaneous in her responses. In addition, we communicate at Cabinet meetings, in teleconferences, and when she is in D.C. The reason for these communications is to inform the Governor and to get policy guidance from her on key issues. I find her to be well-informed on federal issues, and she provides the guidance we need in D.C. to advocate the State's interests.”

Monegan has also raised questions about the propriety of the First Gentleman, Todd Palin, meeting with Monegan right after the Governor was elected to discuss security concerns surrounding a state trooper. That meeting occurred following standard questioning of any newly-elected Governor and First Family members regarding security detail concerns. The First Gentleman was specifically told to meet with Monegan by the Governor’s top security detail, Special Agent Bob Cockrell, to forward serious concerns that were substantiated in an internal trooper investigation. The concerns regarding the trooper included: using a Taser stun gun on his stepson, illegally killing a moose and driving with an open container in his patrol car. The First Gentleman also expressed concern over death threats made against a family member by the trooper.

“When made aware of the security concerns regarding a state trooper, I instructed the First Gentleman to contact the commissioner of Public Safety,” Cockrell said. “It is standard protocol to ask every governor about any threats they perceive or have realized. I will not hesitate to set the record straight in answering these false allegations by former Commissioner Monegan.”

Cockrell, who joined the Alaska State Troopers in 1963, started with the Office of the Governor in 1983, under Governor Bill Sheffield. He is now serving his sixth governor.


http://gov.state.ak.us/archive-32504.html
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:50 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, Are you kidding? Palin is already the sweetheart of the GOP. Bush will pardon her. LOL
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 01:28 pm
Palin's Town Charged Rape Victims For Exams, Former Alaska Gov Says
The Huffington Post | September 11, 2008
Bloggers have been writing for a few days about reports that Sarah Palin's town charged rape victims for forensic exams when she was mayor. Now former Alaska Governor Tony Knowles has come out in support of the story. McClatchy reports:

Two state leaders lashed out at the public record of Gov. Sarah Palin on Wednesday as witnesses in a new "Alaska Mythbusters" forum coordinated by supporters of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama.

Speaking to a teleconference audience of reporters around the nation, former Gov. Tony Knowles and current Ketchikan Mayor Bob Weinstein -- both Democrats -- accused Palin of misleading the public in her new role as the vice presidential running mate of Arizona Sen. John McCain.

While some of their complaints have already been aired, Knowles broke new ground while answering a reporter's question on whether Wasilla forced rape victims to pay for their own forensic tests when Palin was mayor.

True, Knowles said.

Eight years ago, complaints about charging rape victims for medical exams in Wasilla prompted the Alaska Legislature to pass a bill -- signed into law by Knowles -- that banned the practice statewide.

"There was one town in Alaska that was charging victims for this, and that was Wasilla," Knowles said.


USA Today has more:

According to the sponsor, Democrat Eric Croft, the law was aimed in part at Wasilla, where now-Gov. Sarah Palin was mayor. When it was signed, Wasilla's police chief expressed displeasure.

...

"In retrospect, I would have asked the female working-mother mayor of that town why her police chief was against this," said Croft, the former Anchorage state representative.

Palin spokeswoman Maria Comella said in an e-mail that the governor "does not believe, nor has she ever believed, that rape victims should have to pay for an evidence-gathering test."

"Gov. Palin's position could not be more clear," she said. "To suggest otherwise is a deliberate misrepresentation of her commitment to supporting victims and bringing violent criminals to justice."

Comella would not answer other questions, including when Palin learned of Wasilla's policy or whether she tried to change it. The campaign cited the governor's record on domestic violence, including increasing funding for shelters.


And US News tells readers that, while Wasilla was the only town in Alaska with this foul policy, it isn't the only place in the U.S.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/11/post_156_n_125711.html
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 02:16 pm
BTW-

A second hand copy of the book I quoted from earlier can be bought at

Quote:
Bookseller: JD Holmes, ABAA - ILAB
(Sequim, WA, U.S.A.)


It is priced at £158.14. That's nearly $300.

I suppose my post elicited no comment because some liberals prefer to comfort themselves with the notion that Mr McCain is an idiot and didn't know what he was doing.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 03:16 pm
In Alaska, “Hockey Mom” is code for “Arctic Meth Princess.” http://wonkette.com/402545/wasilla-is-m ... -of-course
 

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