9
   

The Case Against John McCain

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 11:08 am
woiyo wrote:
... the Distinguished Senator from Arizona.


woiyo wrote:
Jeez, try to be objective for once!


"distinguished"? Who are you trying to kid.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 11:08 am
As far as I can tell, the only trick Obama has up his sleeve is to try to use Bush's unpopularity against McCain. McCain trounces Obama on every single issue so that leaves only making McCain=Bush.

That will only get Obama so far and how hard will it be for McCain to over come that obstacle? Not very long at all.

I look forward to the debates as both candidates are very personable and intelligent. Should be a fun election.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 11:11 am
McGentrix wrote:
As far as I can tell, the only trick Obama has up his sleeve is to try to use Bush's unpopularity against McCain. McCain trounces Obama on every single issue so that leaves only making McCain=Bush.

That will only get Obama so far and how hard will it be for McCain to over come that obstacle? Not very long at all.

I look forward to the debates as both candidates are very personable and intelligent. Should be a fun election.


Please name an issue that McCain trounces Obama on.

As, at this time, it seems he will lose on both the Domestic and the Foreign policy fronts.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you that the American public is pretty solidly against McCain's Iraq positions.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 11:13 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Are you drunk?


no, why? Everything I said is perfectly true.

Cycloptichorn


Are your sure? Maybe you need new glasses because them Obama style glasses or dimming your sense of reality.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 11:14 am
woiyo wrote:
The youngster from Illinios has not even been able to capture the delegates needed to win the nomination.


He's well on his way. He has the majority of pledged delegates available as of last night, and superdelegates are trickling in today.

The Youngster from Illinois polls poorly in the mid america states.[/quote]

Are you serious, or are these purposeful softballs?

He's doing better than McCain in Minnesota. (By 13 pts as per Pollster.)
He's doing better than McCain in Wisconsin. (Close, but ahead.)
He's doing better than McCain in Illinois. (By about 30 pts.)
He's doing better than McCain in Iowa. (By ~3 pts.)
He's doing better than McCain in Indiana. (By 1 pt in most recent poll.)
They're .2 pts apart in Ohio (McCain 44.1, Obama 43.9)


Quote:
The Youngster from Illinois will need all the money he can grab to beat the Distinguished Senator from Arizona.


Then his amazing, record-breaking fundraising ability will serve him in good stead. (April haul for Obama -- $31 million. April haul for McCain -- $18.5 million, "his best month ever.")
0 Replies
 
hanno
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 01:22 pm
snood wrote:
I really shouldn't have to say this - but looking at some of the comments being made here, I guess it bears saying:

John McCain is the white guy in the contest. That is going to be some much more valuable coin of the realm than a lot of people are either realizing, or admitting - I can't say which. There are people who have deep set insecurities about the basic trustworthiness of a black man, or a man with a Muslim-sounding name. Some of those people are not the dirt-poor uneducated, but some of them are otherwise reasonable people who couldn't for the life of them articulate reasons for the intensity of their distrust.

I've asked some people who will not vote for him why they feel the way they do about Obama, and they just can't say anything but some nonsensical blather about how they "just have a bad feeling".

If the polls don't give you a clue - if even after seeing 8 years of Bush; if even after getting a chance to see both McCain and Obama articulate their views for over a year on TV and people are STILL saying that they would either vote for McCain or NO ONE than Obama - then you are not paying attention.

Y'all really shouldn't be crowing about how Obama is going to wipe the floor with this "mental defective". Trust me, it gives me great pain to say so but in this America, this mental defective still may have the upper hand in a one-on-one with Obama.


Alright, wanna be proved wrong, I'm here for ya. Think outside yourself - what's the real problem with selecting only from the set of non-Black candidates? Save the morality and the individual criticisms, it didn't kill us in the past, much as it's fashionable to say so we're not on the brink of annihilation, and the will of the people exists on dimensions that supersede socio-economic equitability. I know that last one makes me the Grand-Dragon-Wizard, but think about it, suffrage, inter-demographic subtleties, I mean, right or wrong, at that level we can't just put our head in the sand. You could say it's un-American to treat each other that way, just cut a demographic out of representation, but apparently if it's a thing we feel the need to and it's hard to argue at that particular level. Sub-optimality is the real problem. Add an unnecessary constraint, maybe it cuts off a winning solution. Maybe that's what's going on with Barack.

What I've done is qualify the relationship put forth in the issue - what we're left with is the higher dimensions of public-small-mindedness, insofar as it's in play, relative to the objective function - good-presidentiality. It didn't have to be that easy, but in this case it is.

Now, as much fun as it would be to defend it, let us assume small-mindedness is indeed an immaterial constraint - that the opinions of racists have no bearing on what makes a good president. The question, if we are to make a thing about it for some reason other than entitlement, is how much of the feasible region can they deprive us of? 15% is a big chunk, and if we give positive credit for the added perspective (I don't disagree) - say maybe 25% of the 'region. We could add for other minorities, but it'll be immaterial, as much as a matter of circumstance as probability, differential electability-or-lack-thereof, convergence with white demographics, blah blah blah. if you want to play through with a bigger percent go ahead, I don't mean to say exactly how wonderful a non-white pres would be but to acknowledge it as something quantifiable. Anyway, if 25% is the case, and we keep it up long enough we'll be cheating ourselves out of 75% of presidential-effectivity. Big ass problem - this is really why I view bigotry negatively - people can think what they want, but counter-productivity is everyone's business.

So we've got the relationship pinned down, I don't think anyone would disagree per se, let's map it onto the current field, de-generalize so to speak. McCain = 1. 1 presidential potentiality. Barack = 1.33, 1/0.75 of a ticket. Doesn't work, right? the coin-flip thing, they should both be 1. True, but the hypothesis is that we're not going to vote for him because we're cross-burners like my avatar (no, not really). Could Barack be as much of a statesman as 0.75 of McCain? Yeah, that'll be the day. So I say screw race, look at the issues.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 01:51 pm
McCain's Pastor Problem: 'Hitler Was Fulfilling God's Will For Israel' link
0 Replies
 
hanno
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 03:41 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
McCain's Pastor Problem: 'Hitler Was Fulfilling God's Will For Israel' link


I fail to see where McCain endorsed Hagee - to my mind it was the other way around.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 03:44 pm
hanno wrote:
blueflame1 wrote:
McCain's Pastor Problem: 'Hitler Was Fulfilling God's Will For Israel' link


I fail to see where McCain endorsed Hagee - to my mind it was the other way around.


His refusal to denounce such a hate-filled fella will come up again, and again, and again...

He courted the guy's vote, and won it. Says enough about McCain right there.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 04:01 pm
snood wrote:
I really shouldn't have to say this - but looking at some of the comments being made here, I guess it bears saying:

John McCain is the white guy in the contest. That is going to be some much more valuable coin of the realm than a lot of people are either realizing, or admitting - I can't say which. There are people who have deep set insecurities about the basic trustworthiness of a black man, or a man with a Muslim-sounding name. Some of those people are not the dirt-poor uneducated, but some of them are otherwise reasonable people who couldn't for the life of them articulate reasons for the intensity of their distrust.

I've asked some people who will not vote for him why they feel the way they do about Obama, and they just can't say anything but some nonsensical blather about how they "just have a bad feeling".

If the polls don't give you a clue - if even after seeing 8 years of Bush; if even after getting a chance to see both McCain and Obama articulate their views for over a year on TV and people are STILL saying that they would either vote for McCain or NO ONE than Obama - then you are not paying attention.

Y'all really shouldn't be crowing about how Obama is going to wipe the floor with this "mental defective". Trust me, it gives me great pain to say so but in this America, this mental defective still may have the upper hand in a one-on-one with Obama.


Every time you or many of the Obama zealots mention people who mistrust or won't vote for Obama it's because, according to you he's black, even though they don't know it.

F*cking bullshit. F*cking narrow minded bullshit.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 04:28 pm
snood wrote:
I really shouldn't have to say this - but looking at some of the comments being made here, I guess it bears saying:

John McCain is the white guy in the contest. That is going to be some much more valuable coin of the realm than a lot of people are either realizing, or admitting - I can't say which. There are people who have deep set insecurities about the basic trustworthiness of a black man, or a man with a Muslim-sounding name. Some of those people are not the dirt-poor uneducated, but some of them are otherwise reasonable people who couldn't for the life of them articulate reasons for the intensity of their distrust.

I've asked some people who will not vote for him why they feel the way they do about Obama, and they just can't say anything but some nonsensical blather about how they "just have a bad feeling".

If the polls don't give you a clue - if even after seeing 8 years of Bush; if even after getting a chance to see both McCain and Obama articulate their views for over a year on TV and people are STILL saying that they would either vote for McCain or NO ONE than Obama - then you are not paying attention.

Y'all really shouldn't be crowing about how Obama is going to wipe the floor with this "mental defective". Trust me, it gives me great pain to say so but in this America, this mental defective still may have the upper hand in a one-on-one with Obama.


A good post and it undoubtedly describes the likely truth as it applies to some people. However the implicit suggestion, that the only - or even the most likely - reason a white person might vote against Obama (and for the "mental defective") has to do with racism, is false.

The available evidence strongly suggests that the presently detectable division of voters into pro Obama and anti Obama (or pro someone else) groups is primarily based on traditional political, economic and social factors. The evident fact of pronounced enthusiasm among liberal white groups for Obama should give advocates of racist explanations for the present divide serious pause. The suport Obama gets among Blacks also reflects primarily their traditional voting patterns, though they are obviously augmented to a lesser degree by racial loyalties. The same is likely true among whites.

For me the real reasons to vote against Obama center on (1) the likelihood that, despite the lofty rhetoric promising new, transcendent approaches to issues, I see in the record of his actions, mostly evidence that he is a just more-left-wing-than-average liberal Democrat; (2) the likelihood that, even if his assertions to the contrary are truly a reflection of his real beliefs, he lacks the extraordinary leadership and political ability and strength required to actually deliver on them in the face of the vested (and organized) interests in the Democrat party and among "progressive" political groups (where is the evidence suggesting the contrary to be found in his record?).

Finally, though it is anathema to many here, I do find important reasons to vote for his opponent, even though those here who proclaim themselves uniquely free of any taint of prejudice, label him as a "mental defective".
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 04:32 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
snood wrote:
I really shouldn't have to say this - but looking at some of the comments being made here, I guess it bears saying:

John McCain is the white guy in the contest. That is going to be some much more valuable coin of the realm than a lot of people are either realizing, or admitting - I can't say which. There are people who have deep set insecurities about the basic trustworthiness of a black man, or a man with a Muslim-sounding name. Some of those people are not the dirt-poor uneducated, but some of them are otherwise reasonable people who couldn't for the life of them articulate reasons for the intensity of their distrust.

I've asked some people who will not vote for him why they feel the way they do about Obama, and they just can't say anything but some nonsensical blather about how they "just have a bad feeling".

If the polls don't give you a clue - if even after seeing 8 years of Bush; if even after getting a chance to see both McCain and Obama articulate their views for over a year on TV and people are STILL saying that they would either vote for McCain or NO ONE than Obama - then you are not paying attention.

Y'all really shouldn't be crowing about how Obama is going to wipe the floor with this "mental defective". Trust me, it gives me great pain to say so but in this America, this mental defective still may have the upper hand in a one-on-one with Obama.


A good post and it undoubtedly describes the likely truth as it applies to some people. However the implicit suggestion, that the only - or even the most likely - reason a white person might vote against Obama (and for the "mental defective") has to do with racism, is false.

The available evidence strongly suggests that the presently detectable division of voters into pro Obama and anti Obama (or pro someone else) groups is primarily based on traditional political, economic and social factors. The evident fact of pronounced enthusiasm among liberal white groups for Obama should give advocates of racist explanations for the present divide serious pause. The suport Obama gets among Blacks also reflects primarily their traditional voting patterns, though they are obviously augmented to a lesser degree by racial loyalties. The same is likely true among whites.

For me the real reasons to vote against Obama center on (1) the likelihood that, despite the lofty rhetoric promising new, transcendent approaches to issues, I see in the record of his actions, mostly evidence that he is a just more-left-wing-than-average liberal Democrat; (2) the likelihood that, even if his assertions to the contrary are truly a reflection of his real beliefs, he lacks the extraordinary leadership and political ability and strength required to actually deliver on them in the face of the vested (and organized) interests in the Democrat party and among "progressive" political groups.

Finally, though it is anathema to many here, I do find important reasons to vote for his opponent, even though those here who proclaim themselves uniquely free of any taint of prejudice, label him as a "mental defective".


To be fair, Racism is a 'traditional social factor.'

I don't think the majority of those voting against Obama are racist by any means; but I do believe that the majority of Racists who vote will likely not be voting for him, but for McCain.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 04:46 pm
You mean white racists, right? Why avoid your obvious intention?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 04:47 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
To be fair, Racism is a 'traditional social factor.'

I don't think the majority of those voting against Obama are racist by any means; but I do believe that the majority of Racists who vote will likely not be voting for him, but for McCain.

Cycloptichorn


This sounds like an artful definition, designed to be self-fulfilling. Parsing your definition carefully, you suggest that the majority of McCain voters will likely not be motivated by racist considerations, but that the majority of voters who are so motivated will also vote for McCain.

At first glance this sounds reasonable given the relative numbers of whites and blacks and assuming an equal inclination towards racism among both. However (1) I don't think that is what Snood was implying; ans (2) I don't think it fully explains the powerful enthusiasm Obama is able to engender in many (nearly a majority of) whites.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 04:57 pm
McGentrix wrote:
You mean white racists, right? Why avoid your obvious intention?


George identified why I said that well; simple demographics explain the numbers.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 05:36 pm
sozobe wrote:
woiyo wrote:
The youngster from Illinios has not even been able to capture the delegates needed to win the nomination.


He's well on his way. He has the majority of pledged delegates available as of last night, and superdelegates are trickling in today.


He may have the majority of the PLEDGED delegates, but he does not yet have enough to secure the nomination.
He needs 2025, and according to this website he has somewhere between 1931 and 1961.
That isnt enough to secure the nomination.
http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/02/ultimate-delegate-tracker.html

So while he most likely will win, he hasnt won yet.
And from some of what I have read, there is a good chance that neither of them will win enough delegates to reach 2025.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 05:46 pm
hanno, "He courted the guy's vote, and won it. Says enough about McCain right there."
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 06:44 pm
georgeob1 wrote:


Finally, though it is anathema to many here, I do find important reasons to vote for his opponent, even though those here who proclaim themselves uniquely free of any taint of prejudice, label him as a "mental defective".


Funny, you don't seem overly inclined to state your reasons.

Not "a" mental defective, George, just mentally defective. He has no moral compass. He also lacks the intelligence necessary for such a job.

Look how wrong you were on your last choice, a major bush leaguer. No one wants another mistake like that.
0 Replies
 
hanno
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 06:44 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
hanno, "He courted the guy's vote, and won it. Says enough about McCain right there."


how original. Anyway, define courted, I googled it, can't find anything beyond those very words. Even if he did, he didn't sit in a pew and listen to that crap - beyond that, hell if Hagee represents a demographic, let him...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 06:47 pm
And Hagee will be a problem for McCain. He's reported to have said:

Quote:
Going in and out of biblical verse, Hagee preached: "'And they the hunters should hunt them,' that will be the Jews. 'From every mountain and from every hill and from out of the holes of the rocks.' If that doesn't describe what Hitler did in the holocaust you can't see that."

He goes on: "Theodor Herzl is the father of Zionism. He was a Jew who at the turn of the 19th century said, this land is our land, God wants us to live there. So he went to the Jews of Europe and said 'I want you to come and join me in the land of Israel.' So few went that Herzl went into depression. Those who came founded Israel; those who did not went through the hell of the holocaust.

"Then god sent a hunter. A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says -- Jeremiah writing -- 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel."



Now, I ought to be clear. I don't think stuff like this matters too much. I think that candidates for the most part aren't as affected by things said by other people, not as much as their opponents would like. But, will the same people who denounced Wright, be so quick to jump on this guy? Will McCain be forced to denounce him?

I think, at least somewhat. Media eats this stuff up.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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