Real Dilemma

Re: Real Dilemma

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

and I'm truly concerned....

I cannot in good conscience support either McCain or Obama... I'm not a lesser of two evils type... but I feel obligated to remain in the political process....and the truth is one of these two will be the next president.... and each unqualified IMO.... anyone else feel like this?

I haven't been a big Obama fan, but I'm definitely a McCain opponent.

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If Hillary carries to the Convention those two states could affect the outcome provided she is not forced out. The Obama camp is desperate to get her out which is not democratic. It is like declaring victory in the third quarter of a football game. There was actually an incident where NBC in the third quarter switched to the movie Heidi thinking the game was over. In the fourth quarter the losing team scored a touchdown or two and upset the leading third quarter team. There was an uproar of football fans. The TV never repeated that mistake again.

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talk72000 wrote:

If Hillary carries to the Convention those two states could affect the outcome provided she is not forced out. The Obama camp is desperate to get her out which is not democratic. It is like declaring victory in the third quarter of a football game. There was actually an incident where NBC in the third quarter switched to the movie Heidi thinking the game was over. In the fourth quarter the losing team scored a touchdown or two and upset the leading third quarter team. There was an uproar of football fans. The TV never repeated that mistake again.

Do you understand the difference between football and the Democratic nominating process?

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ebrown_p wrote:

talk72000 wrote:
If Hillary carries to the Convention those two states could affect the outcome provided she is not forced out. The Obama camp is desperate to get her out which is not democratic. It is like declaring victory in the third quarter of a football game. There was actually an incident where NBC in the third quarter switched to the movie Heidi thinking the game was over. In the fourth quarter the losing team scored a touchdown or two and upset the leading third quarter team. There was an uproar of football fans. The TV never repeated that mistake again.

Do you understand the difference between football and the Democratic nominating process?

I think a better football analogy would be that the Obama team is up by 3 with 24 seconds left and the ball. All he has to do is take the snap and put his knee down for the game to be over. We are way past the third quarter.

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It's a matter of perception. There is still the convention. The Obama camp want to hurry things up going on the one minute drill while there are maybe 10 minutes left in the game. Lots happen in ten minutes. Two or three Hail Mary passes could turn the game around if the leading margin is small as in the case here. That is not to say Hillary will win but that Michigan and Florida should be given their voices or the Democratic nominee will be a damaged good. In a close race with McCain two big states like Michigan and Florida having their Democrats sitting out the presidential election is a bad move by the Democratic leadership.

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To play along with the ridiculous football metaphor.

The point is if Hillary keeps using dangerous tactics like spearing or chop blocks after one team is so far ahead that the outcome of the game is already settled... the fans and the players might take offense-- seeing as they serve no real purpose and can do damage far beyond the outcome of the game..

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talk72000 wrote:

It's a matter of perception. There is still the convention. The Obama camp want to hurry things up going on the one minute drill while there are maybe 10 minutes left in the game. Lots happen in ten minutes. Two or three Hail Mary passes could turn the game around if the leading margin is small as in the case here. That is not to say Hillary will win but that Michigan and Florida should be given their voices or the Democratic nominee will be a damaged good. In a close race with McCain two big states like Michigan and Florida having their Democrats sitting out the presidential election is a bad move by the Democratic leadership.

I have noticed you bring up Michigan and Florida quite a few times. Do you not understand that they did this to themselves when they ignored the agreed upon rules and held their primaries ahead of schedule which is why hardly anyone participated in those states when they held those primaries except Hillary (and that other guy) in Michigan and no one campaigned in either state? The only way we could have Michigan and Florida's votes count fairly would be to have do overs. But that would simply cost way too much money. Money better spent on the general election rather than bailing out states who thought they could ignore the rules.

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Like I mentioned before the Democratic leadership is an ass. By punishing them punitively such as cancelling their votes instead of delaying it is asinine. Do hand out the death penalty for shoplifting? The punishment does not fit the crime. It is a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face. It is damaging the democracy as well as the party. Those states are denied their votes. They will withhold their votes in the general election and the Democratic nominee will lose. How is that for stupidity when the Democrats has the White House for them to lose.

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ebrown_p: You are resorting to Bush tactics by pre-empting the game. The Convention is the true destination for deciding the nominee. It has always been that way. All this harassing is gang war tactics and backroom moves.

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rabel22 wrote:

Consider that Obama has been in washington for only three years and running for president for 50% of that time. How much of an actual power base do you all think he has built up among the washington democratic politicians. Who will he choose to be part of his government. How is he going to "change" washington with no power base. I think a lot of people have been blinded by good looks.

But most Presidents have no Washington experience at all. After all, we typically elect governors these days. He will have the power of the Presidency along with all his allies who will have Washington contacts.

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talk72000 wrote:

They will withhold their votes in the general election and the Democratic nominee will lose.

You can repeat this a dozen more times and it still wont be any more true. There is little evidence that these states will vote any differently in the general election than they would have otherwise.

Again, here's a data point to consider: in recent polling, Obama's actually done better than Hillary in Michigan when matched up against McCain. What's that tell you about the extent of righteous indignation in that state about Hillary's delegates not being seated?

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What better way than to find out in the convention. That is the formal way to determine the nominee not all this backroom maneuvering and bullying tactics and finger in the air prognosis.

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Don't forget people even voted for Ralph Nader knowing full well it would help George W Bush, not once but twice. Ralph Nader could again run.

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talk72000 wrote:

What better way than to find out in the convention.

Umm, no, that doesnt make any sense.

I was responding to your assertion that if their delegates are not seated according to the current results (based on a primary without campaign and in the case of Michigan, an election with only one major candidate), the Democrats of Michigan and Florida will respond by refusing to vote for the Dem in November. There is little evidence of that, and it is certainly not something we would "find out" at the conventiom.

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talk72000 wrote:

What better way than to find out in the convention. That is the formal way to determine the nominee not all this backroom maneuvering and bullying tactics and finger in the air prognosis.

And here, again, is the question you're studiously avoiding all this time:

nimh wrote:

Obama wasnt even on the ballot in Michigan. Hillary ran unopposed except for Kucinich. Remind me again how it's democratic to seat the delegates from that election.

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Proxy vote for the rest of the world bear.

Which candidate will have the best impact on the the rest of the world

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Change the uncaring, borderline evil tone that politics has taken under the Bush administration.

Cycloptichorn

Where did you live during the Clinton administration? On a raft at sea?

Dems accusing Reps of 'starving children' when budget cuts ,( no actually just reductions in the rate of growth of the budget), were discussed.

Dems accusing Reps of wanting dirty air and dirty water for not kowtowing to every 'green' group that wants a grant from Uncle Sam.

Dems led by Hilly and Billy producing a 'health care plan' that carried CRIMINAL penalties for those who offered or obtained health care services 'outside the system' (i.e. if I want to pay for a doctor out of my own pocket). These 'enemies of the state' would be dealt with harshly to make examples of them.

Dems claiming Bush Sr produced 'the worst economy in 50 years' in order to get Clinton elected in '92. Obviously these jokers think nobody remembers the Carter administration with 20% interest rates.

Dems accusing Reps of being warmongers for demanding action against terrorists (and those who finance and harbor terrorists such as Saddam Hussein), when America was attacked during the Clinton years, i.e. USS Cole attack, bombing of two US embassies in Africa, bombing of the Khobar Towers.

Dems have indeed led the way to a particularly nasty tone in politics long before GWB arrived in D.C.

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The high interest rates were during Reagan years. Many of the huge oil projects I was working on were cancelled as a result.

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nimph:

The question isn't Hillary on the ballots of Michigan and Florida. It is the idiotic judgment on their infraction thus denying them their votes. Their votes should have been delayed not cancelled. Seems more like an over-reaction typical of radical left-wing communist behavior.

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In addition, high interest rates do not automatically equal a bad economy. I'm sure that investors loved those 20% returns they say on their savings.

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